Monday, November 28, 2011

why bother its either repetitive or ignored ...

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This is why you should support a gold standard. Stick it to the mine owners!
Bob: that was good for a laugh! There's now tea all over my keyboard.
2a is still the correct answer. More or less. It's a bit of a macro copout, but no need to bother delving into that here. It's the inescapable occupational hazard.
But the essential underlying issue is interesting, and not just in this very limited targeting context, but how the same dynamic plays out in lots of other areas too. Like fiscal policy decisions. Or regulation.
It also kind of demonstrates why the mostly undiluted macro view of Krugman has almost always turned up the right answer as of late. And why the policy-shaded work of the Chicago folks or his Royal Idiocy Niall Ferguson has proven dismally wrong of late.
RN: glad to see you got the point of the post. But you lost me on your third paragraph. Sorry.
I'm no big city macroeconomist, so maybe I missed something important here, but would it be so hard for a labour leader to say "when you adjust for inflation, this won't affect your pay"?
Is there more to it, or is it just reasonable to assume that the average person doesn't understand inflation?
Surely one equilibrium is for unions to generally accept 2.5% wage increases, for the reasons you suggest, and the primary goal of union negotiations shift towards improving workplace non-wage benefits like OH&S, healthcare, flexible time etc.
I suppose though if those benefits feed through to the firm's marginal cost, then it would have the same macro-economic effect as the wage increases that they are replacing.
I cannot imagine any central bank would like to get stuck in the quagmire of attempting to quantify the benefits and costs of new OH&S or healthcare benefits...
Stephen: but the union leader would have to argue something harder than that.
In both cases (nominal wage target and CPI target) he wants to argue that average real wages will increase if his members get a 3.5% wage increase
1. With the Bank of Canada holding the time path of average nominal wages constant, he would have to argue that his members' above-target wage increase would cause the price level to fall.
2. If instead the Bank of Canada were holding the time path of average prices constant, he would instead have to argue that his members' above-target nominal wage increase would not decrease other workers' nominal wages.
Both arguments 1 and 2 are economically equivalent. But rhetorically, it would be easy to convince people of 2, but very hard to convince people of 1. I would hate to have to try to explain 1 to people using words, and no math or diagrams. It would be really easy to give an answer to 2 that sounded totally convincing, even if the reasoning was total BS.
"Hey, if our wages go up, and the Bank of Canada holds prices the same, that means our real wages go up, right? And if our real wages go up, that means average real wages must go up too, right?"
That argument above sounds convincing, right? But it's total rubbish.
How about this:
"Yep, if our money wages go up, that does mean that some other workers' money wages must come down. But that means the Bank of Canada will have to force prices down to makes some other workers' wages go down. So that means average real wages will go up, right?"
That argument sounds totally unconvincing. But it's much more correct than the above.
Zac: "Surely one equilibrium is for unions to generally accept 2.5% wage increases, for the reasons you suggest, and the primary goal of union negotiations shift towards improving workplace non-wage benefits like OH&S, healthcare, flexible time etc."
OK. Let's run with that. But, what that means is that there's a big long run non-neutrality of monetary policy, if you are right. Nominal wage targeting will lead to higher long run non-wage benefits and lower real wages than CPI targeting. Weird, huh?
A New Keynesian Union Boss? I should very much like to meet such a creature. Pray tell where does this species live?
A macroeconomist who believes in long-run money neutrality of course subscribes to the notion that nominal levers cannot affect labour or capital's share of income. As a union boss you're supposed to have control over real factors though.
As for the optics of it, you could always hold a nice public ceremony with your favorite central banker pledging to decrease prices. Because that's what would have to happen, right?
Determinant: if one existed (and I think one once did) would he ever admit it? I think my post might explain why not.
David: neat! But I find it hard to imagine. Reminds me of Keynes' "monetary policy by the Trades Unions" bit.
Non-economist here. Union member, but not active in any way.
Is this an attempt to explain why Scott Sumner gave up arguing for a wage target? Or how different central bank's targets might have weird effects?
I mentioned wage targeting to someone (a non-economist I suspect) on a forum once. He didn't believe that a central bank could influence the wage level.
I suspect the union leader might take the easy route and argue against the central bank's wage target. It's up to the good guys to explain to the public why it's a good target. I doubt it will be easy. Likewise for NGDP level targeting. Why shouldn't we keep inflation and unemployment low any more?
Nice post Nick, I think it hits home quite nicely after Inflation Fallacy post. As a pro-labour non-economist, I think it is deeply immoral to use unemployment to fight against the worker's interest :). But it is splendid how you've highlighted that CPI targetting does the same thing.
From the perspective of 2c), would the policy choice not be more palatable if it does not so explicitly target one specific sector of the populace (i.e., workers). A clever pro-labour economist would realize that the policy choice nearly guarantees 2.5% increases in wages, which is a good thing. However, how does he or she sell it to labour, when they realize that their paychecks are being targetted during good times? Just consider the potential problems if when during the next expansion the BoC acts to restrain wage growth, while corporations and business owners are making record profits.
Whether or not the policy is unfair, it will be perceived as unfair, with the workers losing out, whether true or not.
Suppose you managed to get an above-target 3.5% wage increase for your members. Everyone might then say: "Oh, that's great for your group of workers, but it simply means that some other group of workers are going to have to accept a 1.5% wage increase, to keep the average at 2.5%, and the Bank of Canada is going to have to make sure there's enough unemployment to force some other group of workers to only get 1.5%!".
To be *really* cynical, the other group doesn't get to vote in my re-election, so the point is moot (obviously this is more appropriate if you have craft unions rather than OBU).
Peter: "Is this an attempt to explain why Scott Sumner gave up arguing for a wage target? Or how different central bank's targets might have weird effects?"
I don't know why Scott gave up, but this is one reason why any central bank would think twice before targeting wages. (And why the Bank of Canada never talks about the natural rate of unemployment, but instead talks about "potential output").
But that point is sort of obvious. It's more about how different central bank targets might have weird effects.
Kosta: "But it is splendid how you've highlighted that CPI targetting does the same thing."
All monetary policies would do the same thing. Therefore none can be immoral.
Alex: "To be *really* cynical, the other group doesn't get to vote in my re-election, so the point is moot (obviously this is more appropriate if you have craft unions rather than OBU)."
Most economists would react: that's not being really cynical; that's obviously how it is.
I'm pretty sure the divide here is a theory and practice divide. Nominal wage increases are the result of relative bargaining power between "labor" and "management" over the returns to productivity gains. Asking to target nominal wages is asking to further neuter labors ability to bargain.
The reason you get effective price level targeting from wage targeting is becuase in New Keynsian/DSGE models wages are effectively the only "variable" that determines price labor unions bosses know that's not true. Anyway, I agree that we should not be using DSGE models to bullshit about politics.
nick,
it is probably one of your easiest post for non-macro economist. You often use ad curves and stuff like that...
student in first year intro class learn the difference between nominal and real wage.
I think 2b is exagerated. I think many people can be educated about the difference between real and nominal wages. 2a is correct.
As an economist ( eclectic Keynesian, too old to be new) and labor boss ( yes Determinant, they exist), I agree with Nick... There is even an college economics professor, a long= term friend of mine, on the Board of the Confédération des Syndicats Nationaux CSN). He gave up long ago on explainig economics to his members.
The way I gave up explaining why it would good for workers to raise Hydro rates and use the proceeds to hire nurses instead of paying C$ 100 K to high school dropouts working in a subsidized aluminum plant ( that's where I lose them....)
Economics and political science were long the same thing . In Canada they officially separated in 1958 IIRC.
If you think it is hard to explain sound economic policy, try vaccinating against cervical cancer in Texas.
my point as an attack trained macronaut
the diference between targets for core inflation and targets for some wage rate index
are matters of fine tuning
the core target is a fig leaf for what in esence is a control of the rate of change of wage rate
overt control would be completely non PC
'nough said
btw
target wage rate not wage rate change
use policy to follow a path of nominal wage rates
get knocked off return to path asap
"Suppose you managed to get an above-target 3.5% wage increase for your members. Everyone might then say: "Oh, that's great for your group of workers, but it simply means that some other group of workers are going to have to accept a 1.5% wage increase, to keep the average at 2.5%, and the Bank of Canada is going to have to make sure there's enough unemployment to force some other group of workers to only get 1.5%!"."
excellent point
and precisely why price targets are prefered by us pro union nitwits
now if you had a nominal value added per hour target ....then the "bossdes" might take the loses " eh ???
are you really an economist with only a BA?
I think to really understand througly issues, you need at least an MA
the changes in unit output per hour ie real output per hour change
is a second dimension to wage rate change
perhaps the union claims we had higher unit output so our impaact on unit cost is zero or just 1% and under the target etc
price indexes correct for changes in out put
are you correcting for changes in output per hour ????
i'm sure others have made all these points in comments above
just wanted to second these points in a sloppy way
this post is exactly what i like to see academic macrotoons doing nick
using the term "wage inflation" may compress to much content
"are you really an economist with only a BA?
I think to really understand througly issues, you need at least an MA"

that is dangerously off course
i think the ranks of macronaut cadets trained in graduate schools after say 1982 got brain washed
of course 101 texts have aught up with the brain wash more or less
samuelson first edition would lead to better macro then most current graduate courses
i recall my own course under phelps at columbia
occured during the expectations revolution
and already this
plus the so called wage push inflation of the 70's
created a generation of half wits
shuttering in the shadow of inflation
unless your micro foundations have ample room for both heterogenious firms and firm pricing power
you have modeled a wonderland again
"that point is sort of obvious. It's more about how different central bank targets might have weird effects"
weird as in primary signifigant different effects
if as you have you abstract for real target numbers you remove the debate
i suspect you share the pair of knocking knees the words wage inflation trigger in those "effectively " conditioned in grad school post 1979
lets look for weird secondary effetcs of changes in target type
not changes in target numbers
ya the monk and his conjury of an infinitude of extensionless angels
making a nice practical field like macronautics
into a semblance of the philosophy of mind
lets get to it brothers and sisters
the point is selecting the right target level
whether its inflations of prices or wages
and given shocks and internal eruptions that number changes from contect to context from major event to major event
we now have a rising debt to gdp ratio
i suggest that pushes higher targets onto the agenda
nick seems to think he wants a for all time and contexts rate on the safe side of zero
imagine suggesting deflation even in one sector given current debt loads
look at the giips
they need germany to raise its wage rates yes acclerate wage inflation
in a community of brains orbiting the rowe sun
this is monstrous it violates optimal rate change norms
btw
this is nicely brief aand sharp
"...And why the Bank of Canada never talks about the natural rate of unemployment, but instead talks about
"potential output"..."
yes they are one and the same
much to the misdirecting of the populace
if we look to the arsenal of democracy years ghere in the states 1940-1944
we see the huge elastcity of actual "potential output