Thursday, May 10, 2012

fiscal versus monetary round 17

heterodox view:
From Financial Crisis to Stagnation: The Destruction of Shared Prosperity and the Role of Economics, by Thomas Palley: Many countries are now debating the causes of the global economic crisis and what should be done. That debate is critical for how we explain the crisis will influence what we do.
Broadly speaking, there exist three different perspectives. Perspective # 1 is the hardcore neoliberal position, which can be labeled the “government failure hypothesis”. In the U.S. it is identified with the Republican Party and the Chicago school of economics. Perspective # 2 is the softcore neoliberal position, which can be labeled the “market failure hypothesis”. It is identified with the Obama administration, half of the Democratic Party, and the MIT economics departments. In Europe it is identified with Third Way politics. Perspective # 3 is the progressive position which can be labeled the “destruction of shared prosperity hypothesis”. It is identified with the other half of the Democratic Party and the labor movement, but it has no standing within major economics departments owing to their suppression of alternatives to orthodox theory.
The government failure argument holds the crisis is rooted in the U.S. housing bubble and bust which was due to failure of monetary policy and government intervention in the housing market. With regard to monetary policy, the Federal Reserve pushed interest rates too low for too long in the prior recession. With regard to the housing market, government intervention drove up house prices by encouraging homeownership beyond peoples’ means. The hardcore perspective therefore characterizes the crisis as essentially a U.S. phenomenon.
The softcore neoliberal market failure argument holds the crisis is due to inadequate financial regulation. First, regulators allowed excessive risk-taking by banks. Second, regulators allowed perverse incentive pay structures within banks that encouraged management to engage in “loan pushing” rather than “good lending.” Third, regulators pushed both deregulation and self-regulation too far. Together, these failures contributed to financial misallocation, including misallocation of foreign saving provided through the trade deficit. The softcore perspective is therefore more global but it views the crisis as essentially a financial phenomenon.
The progressive “destruction of shared prosperity” argument holds the crisis is rooted in the neoliberal economic paradigm that has guided economic policy for the past thirty years. Though the U.S. is the epicenter of the crisis, all countries are implicated as they all adopted the paradigm. That paradigm infected finance via inadequate regulation and via faulty incentive pay arrangements, but financial market regulatory failure was just one element. ...
The neoliberal economic paradigm was adopted in the late 1970s and early 1980s. For the period 1945 - 1975 the U.S. economy was characterized by a “virtuous circle” Keynesian model built on full employment and wage growth tied to productivity growth. ...
After 1980 the virtuous circle Keynesian model was replaced by a neoliberal growth model that severed the link between wages and productivity growth and created a new economic dynamic. Before 1980, wages were the engine of U.S. demand growth. After 1980, debt and asset price inflation became the engine. ...
For proponents of the destruction of shared prosperity hypothesis the policy response is ... to overthrow the neoliberal paradigm and replace it with a “structural Keynesian” paradigm that ... restores the link between wage and productivity growth. ... That requires replacing corporate globalization with managed globalization; restoring commitment to full employment; replacing the neoliberal anti-government agenda with a social democratic government agenda; and replacing the neoliberal labor market flexibility with a solidarity based labor market agenda.
Managed globalization means a world with labor standards, coordinated exchange rates, and managed capital flows. A social democratic agenda means government ensuring adequate provision of social safety nets, fundamental needs such as healthcare and education, and secure retirement incomes. A solidarity based labor market means balanced bargaining power between workers and corporations which involves union representation, adequate minimum wages and unemployment insurance, and appropriate employee rights and protections. ...
    Posted by Mark Thoma on Wednesday, May 9, 2012 at 05:33 PM in Economics, Methodology | Permalink Comments (109)





    Comments

    Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

    Min said...
    “government failure hypothesis”. . . .
    “market failure hypothesis”. . . .
    “destruction of shared prosperity hypothesis”.
    These three hypotheses are not mutually exclusive. :)

    reason said in reply to Min...
    Occured to me as well. I'm sure that Krugman would be listed under "market failure hypothesis" but it seems to me he might have some sympathy with some of the proposed solutions.

    Mike said...
    I see a bit of truth in those three hypothesis. However, I see naivety in the progressive solution. While it sounds good, it is naive to believe that humanity is capable of a unified and democratic managed global economy.
    Any attempt to concentrate political power on a global level in a democratic manner is a red carpet invitation to corporate and wealthy interest to capture politicians. It is naive to believe otherwise. Heck, our own government is proof of this and we cannot even implement these sorts of policies on a national level as "progressives" elect and defend a president who is to the right of Nixon.
    We need more decentralization, not more centralization. Some groups of people will get it right and some will get it wrong and there will be various shades of in between. However, when we try to centrally plan a global economy that is an invitation to political capture that will be masked behind democracy....like we have now.

    urban legend said in reply to Mike...
    First things first: focus on the immediately do-able (to the extent anything is do-able). Explicit emphasis on full employment as the core economic objective -- and without question it should be right now -- will be politically popular with all but the most crabbed Republicans, and initial implementation of that objective through direct job creation in infrastructure repair and modernization -- taking priority for now over worries about the deficit -- will likewise be supported by the majority of the public if it is framed correctly with opponents appropriately demonized. Political feasibility will have to be created by encouraging public pressure to force it -- and that should include pressure to vote the obstructionists, every damned one of them, out of office. Bringing unemployment down will by itself, through increased demand and higher consumer confidence, put necessary upward pressure on wages, and will make possible other efforts like raising minimum wage. Behind the scenes (administrative) enabling and encouragement of unionization wherever feasible will also help, too, but will be easier when unemployment starts dropping fast.
    It's a momentum thing. It has to start with political will and the political guts to stick with and win the argument. The absolute last thing we need right now, too, is hand-wringing by even progressive economists about some imaginary "natural level of unemployment." It will be a long, long time before modest wage improvements transmute into a circular process of unsustainable labor demands and inflation. We have seen in the late 90s and mid-50s that there is no necessary linkage between low unemployment and high inflation -- and accordingly, that there may be no such thing in the real world as a "natural rate of unemployment."

    Mike said in reply to urban legend...
    The 2010 election proved that Democrats cannot defend us from one of the most vile and decrepit parties to ever to disgrace American politics.
    In fact, Feingold and Grayson were voted out.
    I am not even a progressive, but a classical liberal, but I like honesty and I like truth. The sad truth is that there is no progressive movement and if there was, it would be hijacked by corporate and wealthy interest as you made your global agenda.
    Call me an ol' fashion New Englander, but I believe in local government.
    Just imagine if states like CA and NJ could keep their money instead of sending it to DC.

    Min said in reply to Mike...
    "Just imagine if states like CA and NJ could keep their money instead of sending it to DC."
    Then the South would experience even more grinding poverty. The kinds of problems that Europe is experiencing would happen on a regular basis in the U. S.

    FRauncher said in reply to Mike...
    Like Min said. If the states could keep their money, the USA would soon become another Euroland.

    paine said in reply to urban legend...
    great comment
    fatal slip up
    "implementation of that objective through direct job creation in infrastructure repair and modernization -- taking priority for now over worries about the deficit -- will likewise be supported by the majority of the public if it is framed correctly with opponents appropriately demonized"
    simply increase the tax holidays
    pay a big vet bonus
    uncle pays my health premium
    social security pay out hike based on a new retroactive index calculation
    put cash in peoples hands
    they'll spend enough to restore high employment if uncle ays out enough
    avoid social engineering or public sector tilted spending
    mean while keep the plutocrats on the defensive by talking more upper income tax brackets etc

    reason said in reply to Mike...
    So the alternative is explicit capture by powerful interest? How about responding to disfunctional political systems, by fixing the political systems instead of throwing them (and the baby) out the window?

    Min said in reply to Mike...
    "I see naivety in the progressive solution. While it sounds good, it is naive to believe that humanity is capable of a unified and democratic managed global economy."
    What we have now is an anti-democratically managed global economy. Look what is happening in Greece. The Troika (European Union, European Central Bank, and International Monetary Fund) are demanding a constitutional amendment, among other things. In the world at large, the IMF riot is a sign of anti-democratic globalization.
    Mike: "We need more decentralization, not more centralization."
    What makes you think that that is not a progressive goal?

    Eric377 said in reply to Min...
    Greece, I think, is a very poor example. The spending the country engaged in was undoubtedly established by legitimate democratically elected governments and the tax system was so broadly evaded for so many years that it would be quite hard to think the revenue available wasn't the result of at least a tacit national consensus as to what was proper. They very democratically drove the country's finances into ground. Of course there are widespread protests against the Troika: it is not in human nature to publically protest that terrible things are happening that are 99% your own fault.

    paine said in reply to Mike...
    i agree mike

    a global systemic pathology
    and we indeed are a locality
    within this MNC driven global pathology
    needs to be understood clearly for what its is
    but
    this clear view of what is happening
    does not lead to global action

    the optimal unit to engage in class struggle
    against the MNCs is the nation state

    Julio said in reply to paine...
    It may be the best we've got, but it's not optimal. There may be a few nation-states that are big enough to dictate to the MNC's, but even for those, without concerted action, they will race to the bottom to attract the MNCs.

    paine said in reply to Julio...
    good point
    optimal here is "given present boudary constraints"
    yes attempts at regional leagues
    are worth the effort for sure
    ala hurricane hugo and company's
    what's it called "alba " ?

    paine said in reply to paine...
    mnc market credit and technology dependence is not an issue here in NA no?
    or europe either cuba-fication is a dire threat to emerging market systems

    i look at eritrea and nepal on the map
    every night before i go to bed

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said...
    Palley lays out the problem about as clearly as anyone I've read.
    Restoring AD , whether by monetary or fiscal means or a combination , will not solve the underlying problem , and we'll be back in the ditch as soon as the juice is pulled back. It'll be just like the tech bubble , which gave us full employment but had to be replaced by a debt-fueled housing bubble when it popped.
    Krugman falls squarely in the soft-porn neoliberal camp. Today he's railing against the "structuralists" , insisting that AD is the problem and that restoring it should be the primary goal. He's just setting himself up for ridicule - and all the Dems that go along with him - when the economy fails to respond in a sustainable fashion to his fix , if adopted , because the underlying "structural" problems in income distribution and crony capitalism haven't been addressed.
    He loves to point to the full employment that resulted from the WWII stimulus as support for his thesis , ignoring all the pro-labor , anti-finance , and income-compressing "structural" changes that were essential to the development of the Golden Era in capitalism post-WWII.
    Restoring AD by some means is a necessary but not a sufficient step on the road to recovery. Palley gets that while the soft-core crowd doesn't.
    If Krugman wants to dissociate himself from the economic pornographers , hardcore or soft , he needs to start by advancing a more comprehensive plan and by warning that if an incomplete plan is implemented , it will fail.

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    In his post today , "A Structural Blast From the Past" , Krugman points to a paper from 1939 that he claims uses the same faulty arguments that the stucturalists are using today.
    I looked up the paper and found this :
    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1803623?uid=3739704&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=56157634373
    On one point , at least , I think the author was on to something :
    "...The chief need is to find reintegrating forces equal to the disintegrating forces in economic society and so provide full employment that maintains itself out of its own earned income. "

    To me this is not unlike Palley's call for a return to shared prosperity , where income gains across the distribution are tied to productivity gains.

    Edward Lambert said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    I like what you say... I'll make one comment on your point about income distribution and why I think economists don't understand its role yet.
    The problem of inequality comes when it increases steadily over time. It's like this... There has been a persistent recession in the lower wealth sectors for 30 years. The result has been a lack of investment in those sectors for a large part of those 30 years.
    Once wealth inequality stops and starts reversing, you will see instant results in aggregate demand.
    I think this is why economists have a hard time understanding inequality's effect on the economy... They don't study how "increasing" inequality indirectly produces depressed sectors, which degenerate over the time that inequality is increasing.
    ... High but stable wealth inequality is not as weakening to the economy as lower but increasing inequality. Better yet for society now to decrease inequality.

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said in reply to Edward Lambert...
    " Better yet for society now to decrease inequality. "
    Yep , because if we don't , we're on the road to Citadelia :
    http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/the-political-economy-of-citadelia.html


    paine said in reply to Edward Lambert...
    "High but stable wealth inequality "

    is not possible under capitalism
    its always in motion like the prce level
    its either up or down
    simply slowing the rate if its
    in the wrong direction
    is unsustainable
    like ohbummers half way to recovery stimuless policy
    the masses will abandon it

    jrossi said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    Yup, dealing with the demand shortfall is necessary but not sufficient. I suspect Krugman would agree if you fed him a few beers. Hell, if we know it, so does he.
    Labor standards, coordinated exchange rates, managed capital flows? Not my field, but on first glance it seems no more batshit-crazy than what we have now.

    paine said in reply to jrossi...
    rossi mellows

    jrossi said in reply to paine...
    What the hell are talking about, you idiot?

    EMichael said in reply to jrossi...
    With Paine's posts it takes me several rereadings to figure him out(I am sure mostly becuase of my ignorance of economics).
    And I find when I am still having problems, it helps me greatly to squint.

    paine said in reply to jrossi...
    nice response doc

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    "Krugman falls squarely in the soft-porn neoliberal camp."
    Bull. It's clear you've never read a single book by Krugman.
    For example in "Conscience of a Liberal" Krugman studied the past 80 years of American history in the context of economic inequality. The central theme of the book was the reemergence of both economic and political inequality since the 1970s. Krugman analyzed the causes behind these events and proposes a "new New Deal" for America which in concrete terms involves restoring institutions such as the minimum wage, unions and progressive taxation that provided us with the shared prosperity that we experienced during the golden years of postwar America. In that book he blames the rise in inequality experienced in the past thirty years on the neoliberal economic paradigm.
    And that's just one of his books.

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    I don't really question Krugman's good intentions , but for someone with such a prominent soapbox , he's surprisingly inefficient at promoting a progressive agenda. He should be pounding his " new New Deal " on a daily basis , instead of picking fights with structuralists or Steve Keen , or repeatedly regaling us with stories about how well he's been served by IS-LM models and his understanding of zero-lower-bound economics.
    Leaning on the Fed to do more now , even though that may be the only game in town politically , will not benefit a progressive agenda. There's plenty of support on the right for a more activist Fed , so let them take the fall when monetary policy fails , predictably , to yield a return to any kind of sustainable , widely-shared prosperity.
    There's an election coming up. Krugman should be in panic mode , constantly warning the electorate that the only thing that will prevent a declining living standard in the foreseeable future for the vast majority of us is a new Congress that - under sufficient pressure , with Krugman leading the charge , hopefully - can enact something like a New Deal.
    We need big change. Rooseveltian-style change. By pushing for incremental and ineffective changes , like raising the inflation target by a point or two , he's setting himself up to be discredited when the outcome invariably disappoints.

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    Noah Smith shares my frustration , and does a better job expressing it :
    http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2012/05/cyclicalists-should-start-talking-about.html
    "....while liberals throw all their energy into a losing rearguard action against austerity, conservatives are winning the future."

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    Yes, Noah's right, Krugman and most of the other "cyclicalists" rarely address structural (long run growth) issues. But on the other hand Scott Sumner writes about them frequently (practically every other blog post). And while Sumner is to the right of nearly all other cyclicalists I wouldn't categorize him as a conservative.

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    "There's plenty of support on the right for a more activist Fed , so let them take the fall when monetary policy fails , predictably , to yield a return to any kind of sustainable , widely-shared prosperity."
    That depends on what you mean by "right." Personally I can't think of a single self described Republican that supports a more activist monetary policy right now.
    "We need big change. Rooseveltian-style change."
    In that case we need monetary stimulus, because perhaps the most important part of the Rooseveltian legacy was the ending of the gold standard in June 1933 (including the gold clauses) and FDR's declared goal of raising the price level. It was a fixture of practically every one of his fireside chats. And it was the "structuralists" of his day that were most opposed to his efforts to stimulate the economy.

    Goldilocksisableachblonde said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    I would characterize most of the NGDP-targeting advocates as well to the right of the type of shared-prosperity progressives that Palley describes. Whether conservative , libertarian , whatever , they're members of one of the two economic porn groups who've collaborated over the last several decades to systematically dismantle what had been a perfectly good economic system.
    Monetary stimulus was a useful tool for Roosevelt in a way that it isn't today , because he had implemented and would continue to implement policies that ensured that its beneficial effects were widely-shared and thus effective , i.e. , the transmission mechanism actually had a transmission.
    I think Bernanke realizes this , as revealed by his repeated hints that fiscal policy would be a more direct method to attack unemployment. Why would he want to carry the legacy of the Fed chair who was the best ever at pissing up a rope ?
    I share the view expressed in this piece by Dan Alpert re : Krugman vs Bernanke :
    http://www.economonitor.com/danalperts2cents/2012/04/25/earth-to-paul-krugman/

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    "Monetary stimulus was a useful tool for Roosevelt in a way that it isn't today , because he had implemented and would continue to implement policies that ensured that its beneficial effects were widely-shared and thus effective , i.e. , the transmission mechanism actually had a transmission."
    Monetary stimulus doesn't need fiscal stimulus as a transmission to work. (FDR actually did relatively little fiscal stimulus). And the idea of shared prosperity is hardly contradictory with monetary stimulus (By strengthening unions, instituting a minimum age and making taxes more progressive FDR did both).
    "I think Bernanke realizes this , as revealed by his repeated hints that fiscal policy would be a more direct method to attack unemployment."
    Bernanke is merely trying to shift the responsibility to someone else (as is Draghi). He is a born consensus seeker (look at his history as department chair at Princeton). As long as Hawks dominate the BOG he will go along with them. You're just reading you own motives into someone elses. Remember, Bernanke is a Republican.
    "I share the view expressed in this piece by Dan Alpert re : Krugman vs Bernanke :"
    Alpert's views are self contradictory to the point of being totally incoherent. He argues that cheap labor is leading to increased AS (which should lower inflation) and then argues that monetary stimulus is increasing commodity price inflation (which would be symptomatic of decreased AS). Which is it?
    Both arguments are thin as rice paper. How could a positive AS shock in the developing world affect our ability to attain full employment? We always have the ability to depreciate our currency through monetary stimulus to keep our trade deficits in check. How can the monetary policies of the advanced world inflate global commodity prices? They can't. It's all about the fact that supply for these commodities is relatively inelastic and demand in the developing world is soaring. China now consumes over 40% of the earth's steel, cotton and copper and is the world's third largest consumer of oil, which is subject to peak oil. Twenty years ago China wasn't even a blip on the world's commodity radar screen. Now it is the elephant in the world's commodity markets.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    "We always have the ability to depreciate our currency through monetary stimulus to keep our trade deficits in check"
    yes if the price changes and forex changes all push thru quickly enough
    you often seem to leave out your implicit acceptable time scale
    -----------
    "How can the monetary policies of the advanced world inflate global commodity prices"
    are you pulling our legs here ???
    or simply throwing out what doesn't
    fit your schema
    if you have proof speculation plays no role in commodity markets please bring it on

    ---------------------
    please don't tire us with peak supply narratives
    about china et all gobbling up the margin we had for
    thirty years

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Some evidence from 2008:
    The Impact of Index and Swap Funds on Commodity
    Futures Markets
    PRELIMINARY RESULTS
    Scott H. Irwin*, Dwight R. Sanders
    Executive Summary
    "The report was prepared for the OECD by Professors Scott Irwin and Dwight Sanders. It represents a preliminary study which aims to clarify the role of index and swap funds in agricultural and energy commodity futures markets. The full report including the econometric analysis is available in the Annex to this report.
    While the increased participation of index fund investments in commodity markets represents a significant structural change, this has not generated increased price volatility, implied or realised, in agricultural futures markets. Based on new data and empirical analysis, the study finds that index funds did not cause a bubble in commodity futures prices. There is no statistically significant relationship indicating that changes in index and swap fund positions have increased market volatility. The evidence presented here is strongest for the agricultural futures markets because the data on index trader positions are measured with reasonable accuracy.
    The evidence is not as strong in the two energy markets studied here because of considerable uncertainty about the degree to which the available data actually reflect index trader positions in these markets.
    An unexpected finding was a negative relationship between index and swap fund positions and market volatility. That is, there is some evidence that increases in index trader positions are followed by lower market volatility. This result must be interpreted with considerable caution. The possibility still exists that trader positions are correlated with some third variable that is actually causing market volatility to decline. Nonetheless, this finding is contrary to popular notions about the market impact of index funds, but is not so surprising in light of the traditional problem in commodity futures markets of the lack of sufficient liquidity to meet hedging needs and to transfer risk. The empirical evidence presented in this preliminary study does not appear at present to warrant extensive changes in the regulation of index funds participation in agricultural commodity markets; any such changes require careful consideration so as to avoid unintended negative impacts. For example, limiting the participation of index fund investors could unintentionally deprive commodity futures markets of an important source of liquidity and risk-absorption capacity at times when both are in high demand.
    Lack of convergence between spot and futures prices in certain markets, however, does raise a number of issues about the functioning of these markets and possible role of index funds. Further research is needed to understand better these recent structural changes in futures marks and how they may impact on the dynamics of price formation. But at this time, the weight of evidence clearly suggests that increased index fund activity in 2006-08 did not cause a bubble in commodity futures prices."
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/16/59/45534528.pdf

    EMichael said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    Geez
    Why are people surprised that 800 work columns(let alone blog posts) do not cover everything they want it to cover?

    paine said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    "Leaning on the Fed to do more now , even though that may be the only game in town politically , will not benefit a progressive agenda."
    exactly
    krugman wants reform but he won't break
    decisively and openly
    with the anti reform outfits
    like the fed
    and the ohbummer appointees
    ben and timmy
    pk is a prisoner of a complex of learned paradigms
    their habituations are a maze he has tried to find his way out of
    but the learned paradigm's maze
    is too complex and contradictory
    given his guide ie he himself
    is still drinking certain flavors
    of deluding kool aide

    urban legend said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    Not if we make a commitment to see infrastructure repair and modernization through. Employment of two or three (or five) million on long-term, high-paying, non-outsourceable projects that the country actually needs to re-emerge out of its fast-approaching third world status will create the consumer confidence (and the non-neo-liberal/conservative form of business confidence, i.e. confidence based on expected demand, not lower taxes or less regulation) to bring on prolonged prosperity.
    Infrastructure projects as "non-outsourceable projects": now that's a hell of a talking point. Is anyone listening?

    Min said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...
    "Restoring AD , whether by monetary or fiscal means or a combination , will not solve the underlying problem , and we'll be back in the ditch as soon as the juice is pulled back. It'll be just like the tech bubble , which gave us full employment but had to be replaced by a debt-fueled housing bubble when it popped."
    One important thing that will happen with the restoration of jobs, even if accomplished by gov't spending, is that the currently unemployed who get work will lose their stigma. (Yes, it is unfair for them to be stigmatized, but that's life.) Another thing that will happen is that the money spent by the government will be spent again, particularly by those at the bottom of the pecking order, and that will create more jobs. It is not necessarily the case that those new jobs will disappear if gov't spending is reduced.
    History shows that depressions take a long time before recovery. This one, though relatively mild in the U.S., could go on for ten to twenty years. For the sake of argument, suppose that you are correct that government spending during a depression is merely palliative. Would you rather have a depression with low unemployment or a depression with high unemployment?

    paine said in reply to Goldilocksisableachblonde...

    i agree completely
    gold one
    the political business cycle is indeed preserved if macro policy
    is restricted to a response to market generated macro contractions
    even if a rapid and full recovery of the job market is stage I
    do nothing else or nothing more
    nothing institutional nothing extra national
    the market system inside our borders and at our borders
    must be radically modified
    rigged to withstand the class strains of perpetual full employment

    paine said in reply to paine...
    palley sets the goal
    but not
    the political path to the goal
    this other half of the dmbot
    has to seize the party or split it
    greece saw the two establishment parties unit to defend the trans national corporate hegemony
    they were hugely punished
    from around 80% of the vote in '09
    to less then 35%
    the riged seat assignment system
    out of 300 total seats
    the highest vot getting party gets 50 seats
    then the 250remaining seats get apportioned according to vote toals
    with a floor cut off
    result the left and right seat total is artificially dwarfed
    and the established parties remain close to the 151 they need to rule
    ie ram thru the rip off and mass misery express

    jeffrey678 said...
    "Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein
    Klein believes that neo-liberalism belongs among "the closed, fundamentalist doctrines that cannot co-exist with other belief-systems ... The world as it is must be erased to make way for their purist invention. As Klein sees it, the social breakdowns that have accompanied neo-liberal economic policies are not the result of incompetence or mismanagement. They are integral to the free-market project, which can only advance against a background of disasters. Klein seems to suggest that these disasters are manufactured as part of a deliberate policy framed by corporations with hidden influence in government. Her more considered view, which is also more plausible, is that disaster is part of the normal functioning of the type of capitalism we have today: "An economic system that requires constant growth, while bucking almost all serious attempts at environmental regulation, generates a steady stream of disasters all on its own, whether military, ecological or financial. The appetite for easy, short-term profits offered by purely speculative investment has turned the stock, currency and real estate markets into crisis-creation machines, as the Asian financial crisis, the Mexican peso crisis and the dotcom collapse all demonstrate.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2007/sep/15/politics?INTCMP=SRCH

    Mike said in reply to jeffrey678...
    How is neoliberalism = free markets? It is corporatism. It is amazing that people butcher the English language and suggest that laissez-faire economics is not analogous to corporatism.

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to Mike...
    Neoliberalism supports the privatization of nationalized industries, deregulation, and enhancing the role of the private sector in modern society without regard for the market failures that might have made nationalization, regulation and an enhanced role for the public sector preferable in the first place. Laissez-faire policies pursued naively inevitably lead to corporatism.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    right

    river said...
    Palley doesn't actually come out and say it, but I suspect that he falls into the "progressive" camp in his beliefs. Just based on simple intuition (which I realize can be misleading, but is very hard to ignore)of a simple minded engineer, this explanation seems to be the best to me (and one I have argued for a while on this board, but didn't have an advocate with any credentials that thought the same thing (Steve Keen, Yves Smith, Barry Ritholtz and now Thomas Palley the main exceptions).
    The only reason for a person like me to make an argument about this issue:
    "The critical insight is that each perspective carries its own policy prescriptions. Consequently, the explanation which prevails will strongly impact the course of economic policy. That places economics at the center of the political struggle as it influences which explanation prevails."
    "As of now, the economics profession is split between the hardcore and softcore neoliberal positions. However, that can change under the pressure of an ugly reality that produces mass political demand for change, as happened in the Great Depression of the 1930s which provided an opening for Keynesian economics. The only certainty is change will be politically opposed as powerful elites and orthodox economists have an interest in preserving the dominance of the existing paradigm by ensuring their explanation of events prevails."

    denim said in reply to river...
    Currently, it is still a competition of ideas rather than the cooperation and charity, "love thy fellow man," mindset that FDR expounded briefly in 1936: "...Charity - in the true spirit of that grand old word. For charity literally translated from the original means love, the love that understands, that does not merely share the wealth of the giver, but in true sympathy and wisdom helps men to help themselves.
    We seek not merely to make government a mechanical implement, but to give it the vibrant personal character that is the very embodiment of human charity.
    We are poor indeed if this nation cannot afford to lift from every recess of American life the dread fear of the unemployed that they are not needed in the world. We cannot afford to accumulate a deficit in the books of human fortitude.
    In the place of the palace of privilege we seek to build a temple out of faith and hope and charity.
    It is a sobering thing, my friends, to be a servant of this great cause. We try in our daily work to remember that the cause belongs not to us, but to the people. The standard is not in the hands of you and me alone. It is carried by America. We seek daily to profit from experience, to learn to do better as our task proceeds.
    Governments can err, presidents do make mistakes, but the immortal Dante tells us that Divine justice weighs the sins of the cold-blooded and the sins of the warm-hearted on different scales.
    Better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."
    The vipers lie in wait for an opportunity to strike at anyone showing a "warm heart" or to err in any way.

    paine said in reply to river...
    "an advocate with any credentials "
    join the outsiders mate

    Benjamin Cole said...
    It is painfully obvious. The ECB needs to print more money, the Bank of Japan needs to print more money, and the Fed needs to print more money.
    There is a central bank printing money: China. The Chinese central bank has a "revealed preference" for growth, according to the Hong Kong Monetary Authority.
    I guess the mainland Chinese don't know that they "suffering" through three percent and four percent inflation, when they could copy Japan or Europe and get much lower inflation rates.

    Very insightful. Keep up the good work.

    ReturnFreeRisk said...
    "Perspective # 3 is the progressive position which can be labeled the “destruction of shared prosperity hypothesis”. It is identified with the other half of the Democratic Party and the labor movement, but it has no standing within major economics departments owing to their suppression of alternatives to orthodox theory."
    There is alternative #4:
    The Ben Bernanke Easy forever, ignore bubbles policy that everyone here is loathe to even consider. Letting central banks off the hook entirely for repeated bubbles (and they are still being fostered by easy policy) is like letting the wolf go when he was found prowling around the chicken pen.

    EMichael said in reply to ReturnFreeRisk...
    Well, I guess if you think the FED's monetary policy caused the housing bubble, you might have a point.
    However, I have seen no indication whatsoever that thought is true.

    paine said in reply to EMichael...
    the fed needs to be transformed after a huge purge
    an updated andy jackson moment

    paine said in reply to paine...
    read up on the treasury system and let your imagination up date it

    EMichael said in reply to paine...
    I am not defending the FED and and all of their actions, just talking about the mortgage crisis.
    That happens regardless of any FED monetary policy. I saw the same thing(for many of the exact same reasons) in the S&L crisis. The Fed's blame in that area lies in the area of regulation, or lack thereof.

    paine said in reply to EMichael...
    i agree
    do you agree with menzie chinn
    we need some nice general product and wage inflation ?

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    You might be interested in knowing that Menzie Chinn is one of the founding fathers of NGDP level targeting:
    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/2077870?uid=3739592&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21100790004031

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    yes
    but the link to this sub thread escapes me
    else where chinn also supports
    a UE determined inflation target

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    An NGDP level target has a memory so encourages more expansive monetary policy when NGDP falls below trend. This is unlike an inflation target which is memoryless.
    Moreover NGDP growth consists of both inflation and real growth so it is for all intents and purposes another way of doing the dual mandate.
    It's not contradiction to Chinn, only to you.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    mark
    why do i get the impression you miss my takes here
    the notion of a nominal gdp target pathway
    is perfectly consistent with chinn
    and no problem linking that path to UE
    higher UE steeper path

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    That's probably because I don't know what UE stands for (upper extremities?)

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    unemployment

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    That's what I though you meant. Then I don't understand. What's the confusion? (
    BTW, UE is probably not a very useful appreviation.)

    Cameron Hoppe said...
    I don't think any of the three should be ignored. However, the real explanation to lies in the pursuit of status and power. WWII was a shared goal, and it was fought mainly by working class and poor men. This is not a dig against middle class and rich guys: it was a low-tech total war requiring full mobilization. The majority of men were working class or poor.
    It had the effect of putting working class and poor men in a position of status. It put them in a position to be admired. They were universal heroes for life.
    That all changed in Vietnam. The heroism demanded of those who fought was just as great, but they were regarded cooly by wealthy chicken-hearts and sometimes berated by some who opposed the war. Even WWII veterans were known to show disdain for those who went to Vietnam, regarding it as something other than a "real war".
    This is not the whole story, but it is integral to the present dynamic, IMHO. Capitalism is inherently unstable in that today's debt is alsways to be paid for via tomorrow's growth. However, it doesn't matter too much what sectors see growth and which workers or rentiers see their income and wealth increase. So long as there is growth, capitalism survives.
    For me, the dynamics of increasing inequality, periodic financial crises coupled with public bailouts of corporate executives, and the rise of apathetic trade can only be understood in the light of primate status dynamics. A person making $1 million+ per year may consciously think he or she wants more money. What the earner really desires is more power, more status, more reproductive opportunities for one's self or offspring.
    It's easy to justify a drive for money and wealth. Most people can understand it because they don't have enough to meet the real needs of their present and future. It's impossible to justify a constant grab for eternal power for oneself and progeny. But it is exactly what we are witnessing. Economists and everyone else should call it what it is.

    FRauncher said in reply to Cameron Hoppe...
    You and Thorstein Veblen are not wrong.

    paine said in reply to Cameron Hoppe...
    "That all changed in Vietnam. The heroism demanded of those who fought was just as great, but they were regarded cooly by wealthy chicken-hearts and sometimes berated by some who opposed the war. "
    well maybe we need a nam vet bonus army

    PaulS said...
    There has been much discussion about the Depression/World War II analogies. Many such as Krugman argue that it was the extremely high deficit spending during World War II which lifted the US out of the Great Depression. However, there were two parts to the US economic mobilization, and the spending was only one of the two. The other part is the War Production Board. The War Production Board was a huge act of central planning to marshal the nations' resources towards war. It completely reallocated resources to this end. And arguably this reallocation had as much to do with creating the prosperous postwar economy as did the spending.
    This is why it is not a contradiction to say that the 30s unemployment was structural, and at the same time say that the government was able to improve the unemployment picture. To the extent that 30s unemployment was structural, it was the central planning which upended the structure and created a better fit between workers and the economy.
    While these two parts of the economic intervention during the War, the planning and the spending, certainly both contributed to the economic recovery, it is only the spending which has really been talked about in public, according to the orthodoxies. The central planning of the WPB certainly is not. As mentioned in the post, polite economists don't talk about central planning at all.

    paine said in reply to PaulS...
    central plans are called industrial policy in polite circles
    i agree with your outline
    " arguably this reallocation had as much to do with creating the prosperous postwar economy as did the spending."

    paine said in reply to paine...
    today instead of an arsenal of democracy
    we need a green production platform of democracy

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to PaulS...
    The main problem with your thesis is that unemployment had already fallen to 6.0% (counting FERWs as employed) by 1941 and real GDP was already back to trend although war spending was minimal and the War Planning Board had not even been created yet since we were not at war.
    WW II didn't end the Great Depression because the New Deal already had.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    mark
    the new deal ended in the third quarter of 1939
    unemployment then ?
    the arsenal of democracy started to become serious business already by january 1940
    the september events the prior fall
    amounted to the sort of real live systemic shock
    neoclassical modelers pretend explain all flux
    -----------------------------
    counting FERWs as employed is cheating ...
    big time
    the market system did not generate these millions of jobs
    how can monetary policy take "credit " ?
    for those millions

    paine said in reply to paine...

    pop employed ue %
    1929 88,010,000 49,440,000 1,550,000 3.14
    1930 89,550,000 50,080,000 4,340,000 8.67
    1931 90,710,000 50,680,000 8,020,000 15.82
    1932 91,810,000 51,250,000 12,060,000 23.53
    1933 92,950,000 51,840,000 12,830,000 24.75
    1934 94,190,000 52,490,000 11,340,000 21.60
    1935 95,460,000 53,140,000 10,610,000 19.97
    1936 96,700,000 53,740,000 9,030,000 16.80
    1937 97,870,000 54,320,000 7,700,000 14.18
    1938 99,120,000 54,950,000 10,390,000 18.91
    1939 100,360,000 55,600,000 9,480,000 17.05
    1940 101,560,000 56,180,000 8,120,000 14.45

    1941 102,700,000 57,530,000 5,560,000 9.66

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Those figures are ancient estimates (1948) by Stanley Lebergott and are not consistent with the way we calculate unemployment today. (According to BLS definition, if you get paid for work, you're employed. It's that simple.) Lebergott did not consider Federal Emergency Relief workers to be employed. His unemployment figures from before 1930 are also considered to be full of statistical errors. Lebergott’s Depression era unemployment rates were corrected by Michael Darby, and his figures from before 1930 have been corrected by Christina Romer. Here are the updated unemployment rates. These are the very figures which you will find in “Historical Statistics of the United States, Earliest Times to the Present: Millennial Edition,” edited by Susan B. Carter, Scott Sigmund Gartner, Michael R. Haines, Alan L. Olmstead, Richard Sutch, and Gavin Wright. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2006:
    1928 ………….. 5.0
    1929 ………….. 4.6
    1930 ………….. 8.7
    1931 ………….. 15.3
    1932 ………….. 22.5
    1933 ………….. 20.6
    1934 ………….. 16.0
    1935 ………….. 14.2
    1936 ………….. 9.9
    1937 ………….. 9.1
    1938 ………….. 12.5
    1939 ………….. 11.3
    1940 ………….. 9.5
    1941 ………….. 6.0
    1942 ………….. 3.1
    1943 ………….. 1.8
    These figures were first released in the following two papers:
    Three-and-a-Half Million U.S. Employees Have Been Mislaid: Or, an Explanation of
    Unemployment, 1934-1941
    Author(s): Michael R. Darby
    Source: The Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 84, No. 1 (Feb., 1976), pp. 1-16
    Spurious Volatility in Historical Unemployment Data
    Author(s): Christina Romer
    Source: The Journal of Political Economy, Vol. 94, No. 1 (Feb., 1986), pp. 1-37
    A good layman’s introduction to the contoversy can be found here:
    http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/very-short-reading-list-unemployment-in-the-1930s/

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    "Lebergott did not consider Federal Emergency Relief workers to be employed"
    neither do i ..not market employed
    which is crucially my metric
    WPAs are not popular with the market employed

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Well, if that is the case we should count the 20,000,000 or so currently employed by the government as unemployed, since they are not "market employed."

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    quite so i consider the wrath of the tea baggers is in part legitimized by agitprop
    attacking pub sec employees as feather bed types
    with huge pension deals
    differennce taxes are not voluntary expenditures
    like market purchases
    i'm sure you grasp this distinction
    that number is of course
    declining not rising during the recovery
    punishing the public employees
    for the sins of their "unreachable'
    corporate employers and market guardians

    sins
    including the insecurity and squeezings of
    our basic corporate mediated
    market generated jobs

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    drawn up like a try scholar
    but largely beside the point
    the numbers here do not spell
    a monetary recovery
    they spell a fiscally driven recovery
    very much like today
    the historically expected bounce back
    of corporate spending
    and export demand did not happen 30-32
    the spring 33 climax was followed by
    partial recovery
    and very uneven progress there after
    including a vicious recession in 37-38
    induced by federal spending pull backs
    and yes wacked out fed actions
    e cary brown still holds the commanding heights here
    what is at stake ?
    a macro policy built on fiscal spending
    versus
    a macro policy built on fed credit policy
    we the job people need a fiscal macro
    you mark are a bright shining product
    of the macro policy brain wash
    that started in academia
    when i was in graduate school at columbia
    back in the mid 70's
    we all know this now
    since that reactionary paradigm
    failed spectacularly in '08 - '10
    gentle ben gave it the uncle milty treatment
    and look ...
    some of my generation of macronaut heros
    like p krugman got on the clue bus in the late 90's
    but not without too much barro-sargent -lucas era
    gobble dee gook as redacted by that
    feckles voodoo twit modeling
    called new keynesians
    a model perfected for a period of mindless
    dithering over marginal improvements of outcomes

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    E. Cary Brown's paper is one of my favorite papers and consequently I am stunned you chose to refer to it. That's because the whole point of the paper is that fiscal policy contributed virtually nothing to the economic recovery under FDR.
    I refer you specifically to Figure 4 which in turn takes its data from Column 14, Table 1. The degree of fiscla stimulus according to Brown is the difference between the 1929 baseline and his estimate of Net Shift in Demand as a percent of Full Employment (FE) GNP. Using column 14 and the baseline one gets the following estimates:
    Percent of FE GNP:
    Fiscal Year-Fiscal Stimulus-Change in GDP
    1930-----------(-0.5)----------(-9.2)
    1931-----------(+2.2)----------(-5.8)
    1932-----------(+0.4)----------(-11.6)
    1933-----------(-0.9)----------(-2.3)
    1934-----------(+0.1)----------(+5.6)
    1935-----------(+0.2)----------(+8.0)
    1936-----------(+2.2)----------(+7.9)
    1937-----------(-1.2)----------(+5.7)
    1938-----------(-0.2)----------(-3.8)
    1939-----------(+0.8)----------(+5.7)
    Note that the maximum fiscal stimulus occured in 1931 and 1936 and that 1931 was actually a contraction year. based on these estimates the fiscl expansion of 1936 accounted for less than 28% of the growth that year. The only other growth year that fiscal stimulus accounted for more than 10% of the growth was in 1939 (14%). A similar thing applies to the contraction with the worst year of the contraction (1932) occuring during a year when fiscal policy was mildly expansionary.
    Now we know that Federal fiscal policy was at least mildly stimulative under FDR, so what caused overall fiscal policy to be so anemic? Well, turn to Figure 5. That figure decomposes Column 14 into its federal and state & local components. You will note that state and local fiscal policy actually acted as a drag on overall policy in 1934 and in 1935.
    This paper, if anything, weakens your case against monetary policy. It was FDR's abandonment of the gold standard and his pressure to raise the price level that changed the game.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    of course the take away from the paper is that the fiscal injections were effective just way to small and inconsistently applied
    we are not disagreeing here mark
    not on the lack of adequate fdiscal policy prior to the arsenal years
    i guess this is the test
    are you suggesting the economy as it existed in spring 33 could have gotten back to full employment in say 12 quarters simply by using optimal monetary policy
    and a passive fiscal policy that simple doesn't raise taxes or cut spending ??
    no fair to use the wpa ny friend

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Even in a liquidity trap fiscal stimulus is effective conditional to monetary policy. That is why you see what you do in 1931 and 1937. Fiscal policy is completely ineffective without the cooperation of monetary policy.
    And we know from the case of the UK in 1931-37 that it is possible to have an economic recovery in a liquidity trap without fiscal stimulus or much contribution from net exports.
    There is no reason why the recovery could have been as fast as it was without the WPA. (However I see no reason why not to have a WPA and I think its contributions to long run growth was probably significant.)
    As I have said earlier, somewhere else, if FDR had not applied the brakes in 1937, the economy would probably have fully recovered by 1938.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    "FDR's abandonment of the gold standard and his pressure to raise the price level"

    yes this was very positive
    particularly in reversing
    the fisher effect of existing non state debt
    but he never allowed the deficit to reach the extra ordinaire levels necessary for an 8 quater recovery till war in europe

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Where did you get 8 quarters from? Hoover gets 4 years to drive the economy into the ground and FDR only gets 8 quarters to pull back up?!?
    By 1933 real GDP was about one third below trend. By 1937 unemployment had dropped from 20.6% to 9.1%. At that rate of drop unemployment would have reached full employment by 1938 if FDR hadn't applied the brakes.
    (He should never have listened to Morgenthau.)

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    no fdr could have undone the hoover years in 8 ..okay maybe 10 quarters'
    if he had me at his side and did everything i asked
    me or kalecki or abba lerner or bill vickrey
    in fact forget me
    get one of those great spirits
    keynes would have proven too cautious i suspect
    ------------------------------
    you are counting make work public jobs
    i'm not
    i ..excuse me Abba wouldn't need that program or pwa either
    just hoovers development bank

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    i'll stipulate your series is absolutely
    as accurate
    as necessary
    but i note 39 unemployment of 11.3 %
    that is not a recovery number it took 8 quarters or arsenal of democracy
    to approach full employment

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    The US did not enter the war until december 1941, and defense investment and consumption did not really take off until 1942. Unemployment was 6.0% in 1941.
    "What Ended the great Depression?"
    -Christina Romer
    From the conclusion:
    "Monetary developments were a crucial source of the recovery from the Great Depression. Fiscal policy, in contrast contributed almost nothing to the recovery before 1942."

    http://www.dss.uniud.it/utenti/lines/What_ended.pdf
    The paper provides empirical evidence that FDR's fiscal policy provided little stimulus during the Great Depression. She also points out the economy had more or less recovered to trend growth before the US entered WW II.
    WW II did not end the Gear Depression. The New Deal did.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    there's a certain irony to romer
    here
    she might want to modify her thinking
    looking at the present impasse
    perhaps all she was saying
    after 8 years of stagnation and only partial recovery
    in 40 41 the economy showed normal characteristics of expansion
    but
    42-44 showed what a real fiscal blast
    could do in 12 quarters
    make 42 into 34 and we are one mark

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    Well, for comparison sake, let's take the best 3 years of WW II and from the New Deal. Real GDP grew by 49.0% from 1941 to 1944 or an average annual rate of growth of 14.2%. In contrast the best three years of the New Deal were from 1933 to 1936 when real GDP grew by 36.5% or an average annual rate of 10.9%. One was done with a huge fiscal stimulus and an accomodating monetary policy. The other was done with a very modest fiscal stimulus and a huge monetary stimulus.
    In terms of the growth I don't think there's that much difference. They were both breakneck speed. (We should be so luck today.)

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    "mark
    the new deal ended in the third quarter of 1939"
    As long as we have SS, Unemployment Benefits, the NIRA, the NLRA, the FDIC, the SEC and the FHA, the New Deal is alive and well. But I am of course referring to the fact that rearmament really didn't start in earnest until 1942.
    "the arsenal of democracy started to become serious business already by january 1940
    the september events the prior fall
    amounted to the sort of real live systemic shock
    neoclassical modelers pretend explain all flux"
    Then explain why on a calendar year basis (not fiscla year) why defense investment and consumption as a percent of GDP was only 2.5% in 1940, barely up from 1.5% in 1933?
    "counting FERWs as employed is cheating ...
    big time
    the market system did not generate these millions of jobs
    how can monetary policy take "credit " ?
    for those millions'
    What, it is illegal for the government to hire people to do work?



    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    mark
    now you're getting silly
    yes the transfer system was built by the new deal
    but
    recall the famous FDR quote
    about the two doctors
    that marks the sea change more or less
    "What, it is illegal for the government to hire people to do work"
    no
    but it is politically hazzardous the way transfers are not
    the gubmint never gets in trouble when it returns the peoples money to the people who earned it

    the point was monetary policy versus fiscal policy
    i made the distinction between public spending and transfers and tax holidays
    what about this is hard for u to grasp ?
    i guess you really didn't read the kalecki piece very carefully
    its all in there

    paine said in reply to paine...
    doctor new deal gives way to doctor win the war

    paine said in reply to paine...
    retro active
    the line is from Christmas time 1943
    the popular reference to the pearl harbor attack
    the real insider reference to fall 1939

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    "the popular reference to the pearl harbor attack
    the real insider reference to fall 1939"
    That's the whole problem. It was all inside. If it didn't result in any sigificant change in spending or organization the only people that knew about it were the insiders.
    Which is to say it was without much economic consequence until the bombs actually fell on the Arizona.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    good point about insider knowledge
    but i was refering to fdr's social agenda
    and secret intentions to support the brits
    and confront the japanese
    the social agenda ie the new deal
    gave way in the fall of 39
    to his "security" agenda
    ------------------
    bw
    this tenacious defense of monetary first macro policy
    might have made sense before the recent impotence despite huge injections of money
    milton firedman has been refuted by his disciple
    who infamously apologized on behalf of the fed for the great contractions of the 30's
    and vowed if the like happened again
    to do it milts way
    he did and yes the financial crisis was stablized without deflation but we are in the type of stagnation the economy drifted thru from 36 to 40
    -----------------
    wee have hoover's folly and that fed's folly
    but we then have the limitations of the still pre keynes fdr era ...
    now we are post keynes and back to the thinking of 1939

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    But what on earth makes you think Bernanke has followed Friedman's way?
    In the early 2000s Bernanke harshly criticized the Bank of Japan’s inadequate response in the face of the zero lower bound. Its “self-induced paralysis” applies with almost eerie precision to our own predicament.
    In those days Bernanke endorsed (and Friedman would have approved):

    1) Targeting long-term interest rates
    2) Currency depreciation
    3) Money financed deficit spending
    4) A higher (3-4%) inflation target

    Today his menu is very different:

    1) Vague guidance on future short-term rates
    2) Ad hoc purchases of long-term bonds and other nonconventional assets without an explicit target
    3) “Oversupplying reserves”, that is, pushing up the monetary base via excess interest on reserves
    This is not at all what Friedman would have advised.
    (In many ways it is the exact opposite. Friedman must be twirling like a top in his grave.)

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    oh a friedman fan !!!
    well ben and milt both followed the wall street lead come crunch time
    don't believe it ?
    milt would knuckle to the
    no target change and no fast recovery fiscal stimulus
    talk about what academic ben might do
    as pk likes to taunt fails to take the guy
    behind that cheap talk way back when
    into consideration
    milton's basic command flood the system with money
    got followed
    look neither they or i guess you
    "get" the meaning of trap in liquidity trap
    the trap is relying on renewed business spending
    to power the recovery
    when households are credit constrained
    wild talk about asset inflation thru mass purchases is pure gagnonesque fantasy talk
    ---------------------
    by the way mark
    your stuborn ground holding is admirable
    reminds me of the huys at the alamo
    but poland has many alamos eh ?

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    If you subtract the FERW employment then you also have to subtract the meagre fiscal contribution to the recovery as calculated by Brown, in which case it truly contributed nothing to the recovery.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    there was no recovery till war in europe changed the entire game

    paine said in reply to paine...
    only 2.5% in 1940, barely up from 1.5% in 1933
    the climb was very fast mark
    and the destination very high
    big manufacturing was in on the plans
    this was a shock corporate spending re-ignited
    but aren't we losing the focus here
    you contend the recovery was largely a matter of monetary policy
    i say that policy left us with chronic
    below full employment spending
    by the non public sectors
    the war boom drove us all the way to
    high employment and mirror test job markets
    yes the military removed huge hunks of the potential job force
    even more then the WPA had
    but we now move ahead to the post war miracle
    conversion another triumph
    there in part the product of clever credit policy to fund exports
    and vicious financial repression
    real interest rates when deeply negative thank to the rate pin
    and some howling product price inflation

    paine said in reply to paine...
    looking at the participation rates here
    is a very keen sub plot

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    "yes the military removed huge hunks of the potential job force
    even more then the WPA had
    but we now move ahead to the post war miracle
    conversion another triumph
    there in part the product of clever credit policy to fund exports
    and vicious financial repression
    real interest rates when deeply negative thank to the rate pin
    and some howling product price inflation"
    But what makes the postwar miracle superior, or different, from the prewar miracle? Unemploymnt wasn't much lower than in the last year before the war, "market employment" wasn't proportionately any higher, exports didn't contribute any more to economic growth than they had before the war (essentially nothing in both cases), real interest rates were not any lower and all the regulation of the financial markets we had after the war was pretty much in place before the war.
    No magical transformation occured during the war. In fact based on stagnant total factor productivity (TFP), a good argument can be made that WW II slowed down long run growth in the US.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    "But what makes the postwar miracle superior, or different, from the prewar miracle?"
    if you mean the arsenal of democracy period nothing
    in fact the Aof D period is even greater far greater
    it ended the stagnatory fragile/volitile
    "stablized " private economy
    of the mid to late 30's

    "market employment" wasn't proportionately any higher
    great point
    the retirement post war o many jon holders of the war period
    suggests the post war macro
    was at least in part not adequate
    my point here would be to notice the huge reduction in real debt burdens thru high inflation
    and pinned rates not just real output growth
    excellent policy !
    "real interest rates were not any lower "
    this is wrong btw
    if you take the whole interval between 46 and the fed independence move in winter 51

    "a good argument can be made that WW II slowed down long run growth in the US. "
    now you're making a big boo boo

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    "if you mean the arsenal of democracy period nothing
    in fact the Aof D period is even greater far greater
    it ended the stagnatory fragile/volitile "stablized " private economy
    of the mid to late 30's"
    The recovery was great until the 1937-38 recession, which as we now know was probably due to the sterilization of gold flows:
    Gold Sterilization and the Recession of 1937-38
    Douglas A. Irwin
    Abstract:
    "The Recession of 1937-38 is often cited as illustrating the dangers of withdrawing fiscal and monetary stimulus too early in a weak recovery. Yet our understanding of this severe downturn is incomplete: existing studies find that changes in fiscal policy were small in comparison to the magnitude of the downturn and that higher reserve requirements were not binding on banks. This paper focuses on a neglected change in monetary policy, the sterilization of gold inflows during 1937, and finds that it exerted a powerful contractionary force during this period. The transmission of this monetary shock to the real economy appears to have worked through lower asset (equity) prices and higher interest rates."
    http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dirwin/1937.pdf
    (E. Cary Brown's paper of course makes it clear that the reduction of fiscal stimulus contributed little to the 1937 recession.)
    "my point here would be to notice the huge reduction in real debt burdens thru high inflation
    and pinned rates not just real output growth
    excellent policy !"
    But the huge reduction in total debt as a percent of GDP actually occured before U.S. entry to WW II:
    https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj_f0kAjEkv0-esOOmMzp69TQnoyNpIDCMyt97q_iwW9LIJWsTCvKI9wa5GxyFr2WzudSN_Q8W4732xUMamN3E-RF4gxMAFuQ2zxv473uOxZhjQhb2wJGVLrfQsGTmkhaxLw0be0UMK07I/s1600-h/public-and-private-debt-burden.jpg
    Total debt fell from about 310% of GDP in 1933 to about 160% in 1941. Note also that government debt excluding publicly held debt actually fell during the New Deal further strengthening my case that the recovery was driven by monetary policy. And finally note that household and business debt which had fallen throughout the New Deal, rose nearly consistently in the postwar years.
    It's hard for me to see what makes the postwar miracle so much superior to the prewar miracle.
    "this is wrong btw
    if you take the whole interval between 46 and the fed independence move in winter 51"
    There was no Fed Funds Rate and no high frequency PCE prior to the postwar period so a good proxy is 3-month T-Bills and the CPI-U:
    http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?graph_id=75314&category_id=0
    Yes, you are correct, from the end of WW II till 1951 real rates were lower, but with the exception of the Korean War and the 1959 recession, real rates were lower during 1933-38.
    "now you're making a big boo boo"
    I don't think so. The BLS maintains a database of annual TFP for the US back to 1948. A good source of information on TFP growth prior to that is a few of papers by Alexander J. Field: “US economic growth in the gilded age”, “The Most Technologically Progressive Decade of the Century” and “The origins of US total factor productivity growth in the golden age”.
    Average annual TFP growth is as follows:
    1835-1855-0%
    1855-1869/1878-(-0.5%)
    1869/1878-1892-2.0%
    1892-1919-1.1%
    1919-1929-2.0%
    1929-1941-2.8%
    1941-1948-0.5%
    1948-1973-1.9%
    1973-1995-0.5%
    1995-2005-1.5%
    The first thing that should grab your attention is that TFP growth was at its most rapid during the Great Depression. The second thing you should observe is that TFP growth was at 1.9% or higher from the 1870s through 1973 with the exception of 1892-1919 and 1941-1948.
    Since 1855 the two slowest TFP growth periods have both involved wars. This is not a big surprise to me.



    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    methodology artifacts of the tfp witch craft
    reminds me of barros multiplier clacs for the aresenal years

    mark
    address the kalecki thesis instead of pushing into false diversions
    the monetary instruments
    you cling to
    require corporate co=operation
    low cost credit offers to induce spending
    are not like purchases
    funded by injected payments
    fiscal policy ..i'm now tired of repeating
    can pull an economy to potential output levels
    by putting no obligation cash in the right hands
    if you have invested many hours in assimilating this carefully concocted
    brain wash
    then be brave and try to fight your way out
    but first realize you have to liberate yourself
    paul krugman still clings to his possible pure monetary routes too
    but he at least sees under these extreme conditions the prefered course
    fiscal injections
    if you at least see that point
    then it just a mattr of freeing you under average conditions when indeed a form of macro stablity can be used thru several cycles
    that is until
    the debt bind on the non state sectors bite
    and a convulsiuon like we just had occurs
    the asset markets indeed played hob with spending in the sharp recession of 37-38

    paine said in reply to paine...
    let me add
    fiscal policy may well have to counter act job class hostile other adverse fed policy
    but its easwily enough done
    so long as the potus and the hill remain in the hands of clear headed stout job people agents

    Mark A. Sadowski said in reply to paine...
    You need to go back and reread your Kalecki. All he is proposing is monetary expansion directed into government spending. It's just another way of doing monetary stimulus, nothing magical.
    So it all comes back to money, because you can't stimulate AD without it. The Great Depression proved that.
    Now if, you want to talk about using long run fiscal policy to address growth/structural issues like investing in R&D, education and infrastructure and using regulatory and tax policy to ensure shared prosperity then I'm all for it.
    The one big disadvantage to addressing those issues through fiscal stimulus is that by the very nature of fiscal stimulus it is temporary.
    ARRA is over. Whatever benefit it may have had in addressing those issues is over. (Whic is debatable. In fact I have a paper somewhere that show the distributional effect of ARRA was zero.) Any future fiscal stimulus will also be temporary.
    Fiscal stimulus is not the best way to address long run issues.

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    oh no
    "All he is proposing is monetary expansion directed into government spending. It's just another way of doing monetary stimulus, nothing magical."
    now i 'm not sure you have any contact with reality
    are you so reified
    that actual uncle borrowing can be equated with maybe corporate borowing that's you gig here
    look here's the key passage
    "In current discussions of these problems there emerges time and again the conception of counteracting the slump by stimulating private investment. This may be done by lowering the rate of interest, by the reduction of income tax, or by subsidizing private investment directly in this or another form. That such a scheme should be attractive to business is not surprising. The entrepreneur remains the medium through which the intervention is conducted. If he does not feel confidence in the political situation, he will not be bribed into investment. "
    get it a veto
    once you give corporations a veto
    then comes the alledged bond vigilantes confidence fairies
    bob rubin and alan greenspan
    come on what's hard to see here ?
    we must have a strategic by pass plan
    or we'll get these half assed slow as a snail recoveries because that is just what corporate amerika ordered

    paine said in reply to Mark A. Sadowski...
    mark
    be a good scholar and get the rate of employment growth ..market jobs ..
    summer 33 to the onset of the recession of 37

    lets see just how fast the market added employment
    and compare that to the peace time recovery
    of 38- 39
    percents please so we can compare to reagan era recovery rates

    Edward Ericson Jr. said...
    The post WWII role of what Andre Gunder Frank called "military Keynesianism" arguably played a role both in the pre-1980s "virtuous cycle" and its less virtuous aftermath.
    It's hard to put 4-8 percent of your imputed GDP into an utterly unproductive endeavor and not produce first order economic distortions.
    Jes sayin'.

    ezra abrams said...
    Quote:
    "... 1945 - 1975 the U.S. economy was characterized by a “virtuous circle” Keynesian model built on full employment and wage growth tied to productivity growth"
    I guess being the world's super power, no competition for industrial stuff from japan and china, low oil etc had nothing to do with it.
    if all you have is a hammer..
    I'm always amazed at how little effort economist put into getting something other then a hammer (tools from phd time) to study problems
    Of course, if things like military might creating low oil were responsible for some of the growth, then people might question the high status afforded to the math driven economist

    paine said in reply to ezra abrams...
    ezra you are excavating some of the factors that enabled this keynesian interval
    to consider say a hicks-mundell is/lm model
    a hammer strikes me as less then helpful
    more like a
    crude but effective homeostatic control mechanism
    if attended to
    sufficient to restore and maintain high employment