Friday, April 20, 2012

higher ed follies with paine gremlins

.
"The comments divided relatively predictable ways, according to whether the commentor were inclined toward Republican or Democratic policies, but relatively little energy was given to the question of the value of higher education. Most people can appreciate the beneficial technologies will that depend upon the scientific training and research that goes on in universities, although not everybody recognizes the debt that society owes to higher education in such developments.
Higher education can mean more than learning about science or classical literature. My own first learning experience in higher education had little to do with a classroom. I found myself in contact with a much wider variety of people that I had ever previously encountered. That in itself broadened my perspective on life. Classes in history, as well as classical music and literature, helped to give me a sense of the life and culture of other parts of the world. My greatest benefit from higher education was a curiosity about the world that I had lacked before.
Let me turn for a moment to an observation about my field, economics. Many of the economists who other economists recognize for making the greatest contributions to their field are people who benefited from exposure to different fields. The winner of the not-really Nobel Prize, Kenneth Arrow, was trained as a meteorologist during the Second World War. Similarly, Nobelist Paul Samuelson worked with mathematicians, engineers, and physicists developing radar during the war. Phil Mirowski’s Machine Dreams is filled with such examples. Of course, scientists have gotten inspiration from similar experiences.
In short, education in general is not something that can be easily measured in objective terms. Ideas, which initially seemed kooky, often later turn out to be crucial for future development.
The me finish by saying that my complaints are not the product of some disgruntled academic, upset over low pay, mistreatment, or any other personal problems. I enjoy what I do. In fact, if I were willing to retire, I could teach half-time for a few years while collecting my pension. If I did, my income would increase but I can only do so [keep teaching] for five years. Consequently, I pay to keep teaching. I have good relationships with my chairman, my dean, and president of the University.
My anger is directed toward the forces that are working to destroy a world, which I love."
----------------------------------------

comments
fans
watch carefully  for paine's suave interventions

                   

save_the_rustbelt said...
I just left an advisory board meeting at a very fine liberal arts college, and one of the items of regular conversation is balancing liberal learning with preparation for work and grad school. I find many schools do that very well.
Anyone who knows academics knows most love their work, whether a teaching prof , a research prof or one who balances both.
They would also know academics tend to see the sky falling with every minor set back, tend to huddle together and spread pessimism, and tend to have an "us-vs.-the-world" mentality. Public school profs tend to whine perhaps more than most, especially when not getting "enough" taxpayer dollars.
Relax, the sky is not falling, higher education has lots of resources and lots of really good people, and is still doing the mission.
Problem? Sure. Crisis? No.

Paine said in reply to save_the_rustbelt...
Rusty
they must serve kool aide at those meetings
We could wipe out all the 5 or 7 Thousand liberal arts colleges tomorrow
and be better off in four years time
Too many colleges too many graduate and professional programs
If you want to cultivate your humanist taste buds and aristotlian breath of knowledge
Pay for it
Like you do when you work out at a gym
Lecture series oughta sell tickets like they use to
Required Credits for a degree oughta be abolished
Mass produced de centralized
spontaneously homogenized
Sets of
gentle taste buds
lead to things like
The Democrat party
The new York times
NPR
And pretentious sports writers
Without the mass of half baked college BA types
Those horrors would be gone like the antebellum south

Paine said in reply to Paine...
The worse part
Those. Giant live in campus compounds
They need the kind of clean outs
Tudor England pulled on the British monasteries
big higher Ed needs a savage scalping
Pillage the great American halls of learning
Then burn them down
Like the covens of some many witches and warlocks

jonboinAR said in reply to Paine...
Where would our young folks learn to drink?

cm said in reply to jonboinAR...
The army (if you had a draft).

cm said in reply to cm...
Of course, that would only apply to men, unless you had some mandatory service for women (as Israel has, I believe).

anne said in reply to Paine...
We could wipe out all the 5 or 7 thousand liberal arts colleges tomorrow
and be better off in four years time
Too many colleges too many graduate and professional programs....
[What nonsense, why not stop turn away from public schooling completely at any level? Too many elementary school, and middle schools and high schools. Huh?]

paine said in reply to anne...
anne ..come now
that doesn't follow in the slightest
public education and private education
are rival systems
higher Ed is clearly an entirely different prospect
then pre school or k thru 6 or 7-9
or 10 thru 12
or community college for that matter
unfortunately our public higher Ed
is the lesser force in the halls of power
private higher ed wags the public dog

DrDick said in reply to Paine...
I assume that you would prefer to return to the Dark Ages?

Paine said in reply to DrDick...

We are already playing at dark age culture
The typical small private liberal arts college is 2/3's a "great hall " feasting ground
Right out of arthurian legend
Fit for ritual gluttony sloth and fornication

substance abuse is de rigour
and intensified class and sectional prejudice and insulation
The objective outcome of seminars and lectures everywhere
If the playing fields of college amerika are anything they are simulated dark age conflicts

Leading Edge Boomer said...
I (still) think that primary and secondary education has a goal to instill basic life skills and provide an elementary set of knowledge so that, if a student stops there, a useful and capable citizen results. In short, to make people similar.
And higher education is different. In addition to preparation for a career, a college education enables each student to pursue, among required and optional courses, interests heretofore only begun or not started at all.
While my career is firmly in STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics), my freshman history professor reversed the damage done by an inept high school teacher that ultimately led to membership in the History Book Club. I was able to further pursue foreign languages (French, German, Russian) that have been supportive in my technical career. In literature classes, I gained a love of reading widely.
The proposals for three-year baccalaureate programs that eliminate the central core of a liberal education are ignoring this point of view. Just as a PhD is not just more MS work, a BA or BS is not just career training. European countries, and many others around the world, offer a three-year program but, at least in Germany, another year qualifies for a "real" degree. Likewise, most US graduate schools do not recognize three-year foreign degrees as meeting the requirement to admission.

Paine said in reply to Leading Edge Boomer...

Why should taxes subsidize luxury products ?
A class in greek tragedy or geek number theory
Oughta come ought of private funds entirely
Including the tax exemption on the lot value of the facilities

Monstrous elitism !

DrDick said in reply to Paine...
How do you figure that these are luxury products? I would point out that the countries with the lowest inequality and highest happiness (Scandinavia) provide free public higher education to all citizens who meet the entrance requirements.

run75441 said in reply to DrDick...
Dr:
I would suggest he is being facetious

don said in reply to run75441...
Aha. Shoulda knowed.

Paine said in reply to run75441...
Sir I am never anything but facetious
Comment cages like these are centers of light recreation
Amateur declammation
And ersatz instruction
Much like our college dorms and quadrangles
And alas too too often our class rooms

Paine said in reply to DrDick...
I like to suggest the student prince and princess template
as the outcome of Too many ... 7 thousand .. colleges
competing for too few upper middle income
tuition room and board paying
Late Teen trolls dwarfs elfs and demoniacs
These grotesque gargoyle like institutions are sucking the vitality
out of our great state universities
Which themselves are ever more like poor imitations
Of their private liberal arts competitors

don said in reply to Paine...
Somehow I have trouble believing these comments are from the same paine who espouses massive fiscal stimulus.

Roger Gathman said in reply to don...
Paine has been a consistently Ivan Illich type of de-schooler. One of those areas where I think he is off his rocker. On the other hand, we all have our dislikes - I'd like to see our military shrunk to the size of China's.
The liberal arts college has flourished in the U.S., and long may it continue to do so. If "we"- the vast 99 percent - were as wealthy as "we" deserve to be - that is, if the 99 percent owned the majority of wealth in this country - there would be no problem, and college would simply be seen as a normal experience for a certain age group - just as high school (another Paine bugaboo) is seen as a normal experience for the 13-18 set. For the deal in this wealthy republic is that life isn't hard - it is simply made hard for the majority. The reason to create wealth is to live more abundantly, not to live in fear and trembling that you won't be able to pay the next bill.

Paine said in reply to Roger Gathman...
Keen view of mineself here rog
For the record and free of sardonic etc
I would support a free community college system that was open to everyone
Each course by each course
All credits universally transfer able and granting all sorts of certifications thru testing
But i'd prefer we introduced free universally available
Federally funded
8 hour per day
pre school
For any and 6 month to 5 year olds

Paine said in reply to Paine...
Btw I'd like there to be a universal all volunteer local militia
And a pentagon without a Weimar sized regular army
A coast guard and air defense system
Make china's military establishment look like Germany's in 1906 by comparison

James said...
I will never forget attending lectures in the early eighties and seeing "Read Atlas Shrugged" on the chalk board of nearly every lecture hall. Those who deny the propaganda efforts of the extreme right wing either haven't been around long enough, aren't paying attention, or do not have a clue as to what has been lost over the last generation. The world you loved is mostly gone, but was probably transient to begin with. It has been/is being replaced by a much more draconian world based on power politics, money and influence where curiosity and concern about the natural world, liberal arts, culture and most importantly, truth and justice, are disposable and inconvenient niceties. Be glad for having been at the place and time that was your privilege.

Alex Smith said in reply to James...
Tell me of an era in world history that wasn't a "draconian world based on power politics, money and influence". I suggest you do some reading about the Medici family.

DrDick said in reply to Alex Smith...
The purpose of the American Revolution was to overturn that world, but then it is clear that you want to return to feudalism, as you are under the delusion that you would be among the elites and not cleaning stables.

cm said in reply to DrDick...
The "google account brigade" is back ...

Paine said...
This is completely fatuous pearly
One think I noticed there were two kinds of teachers that loved teaching
And only one of those two kinds ought to teach
The other kind oughta get an honest job producing something useful
Higher Ed sold as a luxury good that we are all entitled to if we can get in
is nasty
The rest of us subsidizing this luxury tour and the gaggle of tour guides that conduct them thru it
Strikes me as only less bad if compared to
counter insurgencies
corporate tax loop holes
The war on drugs
hyper incarceration rates
and bank bail outs

Fred C. Dobbs said...
All too often, it's something your parents
think you need, and it may indeed be useful
career-wise, else why else do it? Perhaps to
achieve a modicum of liberal perfection,
before senesence begins to set in.

Fred C. Dobbs said in reply to Fred C. Dobbs...
Then there is this...
https://www.coursera.org/#courses
Courses for Everyone.
We offer a wide range of courses from our partner institutions, spanning the humanities to engineering. Find a course that interests you and join today to learn alongside our global community!
Stanford - Princeton - Penn - U/Michigan

cm said in reply to Fred C. Dobbs...
That's all laudable (really), but what about the degree paper?

Fred C. Dobbs said in reply to cm...
That's what the internet is for, maybe?
http://diplomacompany.com/

waldtest said...
Best brief discussion of the value of education I have read:
http://www.williamcronon.net/writing/Cronon_Only_Connect.pdf
I routinely assign it to my public policy students.

This is America. If you can't buy it, or sell it, it doesn't exist.
In 20 years you won't be able to get a non-STEM first degree at a land-grant university, with possibly Ann Arbor and Berkeley and either Bloomington or Champaign-Urbana the remaining exceptions.

Lyle said in reply to Davis X. Machina...
Which indeed was the way the land grant universities were when founded. Consider that between the land grant schools and the normal schools 60 years ago most tertiary institutions were essentially vocational either directly in the case of a normal school (teachers college) or land grant school. BTW it should be noted that none of the 3 schools listed are land grant schools, in MI its Michigan State, in Indiana Purdue, and in CA UC-Davis. Indiana and Michigan predate the morrill act btw.

bakho said in reply to Lyle...
Illinois UC is land grant. They even have corn plots on campus.

bakho said...
The comments on to this post point to why public education is in trouble.
Government cutbacks in funding make college more unaffordable meaning fewer attend meaning less support. College is very easy to attack and more difficult to defend to those who lack the experience.
A lot of money is spent on education and there are plenty of people who would destroy public education to have a better shot at skimming education money into their own pockets through private for profit colleges.

DrDick said in reply to bakho...
In clearly market terms, the value of higher education is clear. Demand from prospective students is still high, despite excessively high tuition. Likewise, demand for college educated employees is still high, as represented by the dramatically lower unemployment among that group compared to those without a college education.
In a broader sense, higher education exposes students to new ideas and broadens their horizons, which can contribute to greater creativity and productivity. It also helps them learn critical and analytical think and provides a broad knowledge base to work from, allowing more informed decisions. The founders of this country clearly thought that an educated populace was the key to successful democracy.

DrDick said in reply to DrDick...
Actual data about the value of a college education: http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/acs-14.pdf

cm said in reply to bakho...
It's the general problem with fixed infrastructure operating charges. Eliminate enough rate payers (or public supports), and it becomes unsustainable.

anne said...
The comments divided relatively predictable ways, according to whether the commentor were inclined toward Republican or Democratic policies, but relatively little energy was given to the question of the value of higher education....
-- Michael Perelman
[I think the problem is letting readers know that what is wished is a discussion of the value of higher education, also I have no clear idea what the differences between Republicans and Democrats are on higher education and could not respond to the differences unless they were explained.
I thought the initial complaint was about cost of schooling.]

Paine said in reply to anne...
The high handed smugness of "predictable"
Gives old pearly away here
Nothing a couple years behind a target cash register could not rectify of course
Peraly is surely Not a brad Delong
but he's not Noam Chomsky either

Mark A. Sadowski said...
"I thought the initial complaint was about cost of schooling."
Me too. After rereading Perelman's original post I don't understand what his complaint is about. The theme of educational funding and affordability runs through virtually every sgle paragraph.
If he wanted a debate about the value of education perhaps he should have written a post about it.

anne said...
This to me is what a free public schooling amount to, we may have forgotten:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/24/international/africa/24africa.html
October 24, 2004
In Africa, Free Schools Feed a Different Hunger
By CELIA W. DUGGER
MALINDI, Kenya - More than 200 first graders, many of them barefoot, clothed in rags and dizzy with hunger, stream into Rebecca Mwanyonyo's classroom each day. Squeezed together on the concrete floor, they sit hip to hip, jostling for space, wildly waving their hands to get her to call on them. Their laps and the floor are their only desks.
One recent afternoon, the line of wiggly children waiting to have Mrs. Mwanyonyo check their work snaked around the bare, unfinished classroom walls. Girls and boys crowded around her, pressing their notebooks on her. Some cut in line. Fights broke out. Boys wrestled. Girls dashed from the room. Giggles and shrieks drowned out her soft voice.
Mrs. Mwanyonyo pulled a boy in front of her and eyed his attempt to list his numbers. "Can you write 1 and 2?" she asked quietly. His head sank to his chest as he shook it no. While she laboriously graded each child's work, the noise level rose to deafening. "Quiet, keep quiet!" she shouted, her voice on the edge of desperation.
Overnight, more than a million additional children showed up for school last year when Kenya's newly elected government abolished fees that had been prohibitively high for many parents, about $16 a year. Many classrooms are now bulging with the country's most disadvantaged children.
Kenya is not alone. Responding to popular demand for education, it is one of a raft of African nations contending with both a wondrous opportunity and nettlesome challenge: teaching the millions of children who have poured into schools as country after country - from Malawi and Lesotho to Uganda and Tanzania - has suddenly made primary education free. Mozambique will join them in January when it abolishes fees.
The explosion in enrollments has put enormous pressure on overburdened, often ill-managed education systems.
What hangs in the balance is the future of a generation of African children desperately reaching out for learning as a lifeline from poverty, even as poverty itself presents a fearsome obstacle.
Near the end of a school year that runs from January to November, Mrs. Mwanyonyo, an earnest wisp of a woman, is still struggling to teach most of her students the alphabet and basic counting. She knows the names of only half of them. She estimated that 100 of her 250 students - split into morning and afternoon shifts - would have to repeat the grade.
Salama Kazungu, a willowy girl of 12, sits among Mrs. Mwanyonyo's multitudes, her small shapely head rising above those of the 6- and 7-year-olds. She failed last year in the class of another first grade teacher who had 248 pupils. ("If I could have, I would have run away," the teacher confided, relieved he has just 110 pupils this year.)
Not Enough to Eat
It is hard for Salama to learn because her belly is often empty. Her mother sells charcoal but makes too little to buy enough food. Salama never eats breakfast. For supper, she often has only boiled greens foraged from the wild.
On her hungriest days, the child said, she looks at Mrs. Mwanyonyo and sees only darkness. She listens, but hears only a howling in her ears. Yet she is determined to continue. At 12, she has already had her fill of the African woman's lot: fetching water, collecting firewood and carrying it to market on her back like a beast of burden.
"I was always working and working," she said. "I told myself that the best way to get out of this is to come to school and get an education."
In large measure, the idea of free education has gained powerful momentum because politicians in democratizing African nations have found it a great vote-getter. Deepening poverty had meant even small annual school fees - less than an American family would spend on a single fast-food meal - had put education beyond reach for millions.
The abolition of school fees is also owed to the changing politics of international aid. In the 1990's, the World Bank, the largest financier of antipoverty programs in developing countries, encouraged the collection of textbook fees. Its experts had reasoned that poor African countries often paid teacher salaries but allotted little or nothing for books. If parents did not buy them, there often were none.
But evidence began to mount that fees for books, tuition, building funds and other purposes posed an insurmountable barrier for the very poor....

anne said in reply to anne...
There was a time when the University of California charged no tuition, that time continued to the middle of the 1980s and there were other wonderful public university systems that cost very, very little to attend, but now:
http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm
July 14, 2011
University of California at Los Angeles
2011-2012 Estimated Undergraduate Student Budget
Per Academic Year ( 9 months)
University Fees ( $12,686)
Health Insurance ( 1,225)
Books and Supplies ( 1,509)
Living with relatives: Room and Board ( 4,386)
Transportation ( 1,776)
Personal ( 1,668)
Total Resident Budget ( $23,249)

Paine said in reply to anne...
Anne
Have you ever considered the role of our 7 thousand private colleges in undermining our state university systems?
The gaggle of private colleges
always on the edge of oblivion
Always short of paying student enrollments
Have systematically clawed away at the cost advantages
Of state systems they compete against for enrollment

Not to mention the rigged scholarship cartel
That in effect prevents open competition for talent

And in particular props up the price leader system of fees

A legal conspiracy
I suggest we turn the core facilities of 6 thousand private colleges
drawn with scrupulous equity by Lott
Into daycare clusters sanitoria detox centers and food kitchens
And the ancillary and specialized facilities into public institutions

public libraries Public housing and public research facilities



Paine said in reply to Paine...
Liberal education should be the task of free open admission
community colleges
The so called public research universities of course require reformation
Of the root and branch variety
To become worthy of public support
But we can save that for another post

                   
anne said...
Higher education can mean more than learning about science or classical literature. My own first learning experience in higher education had little to do with a classroom. I found myself in contact with a much wider variety of people that I had ever previously encountered. That in itself broadened my perspective on life. Classes in history, as well as classical music and literature, helped to give me a sense of the life and culture of other parts of the world. My greatest benefit from higher education was a curiosity about the world that I had lacked before....
[Surely so, and I would only hope for as many people to share such an experience as possible and we can make it increasing more possible to do so.]

                   

                   

                   

                   

                   

Yeah_No said...
I'm to the left of the Democrats, but contrary to what Perelman says, I think Alex Tabarrok makes some very good points that liberals must acknowledge:
"Our obsessive focus on college schooling has blinded us to basic truths. College is a place, not a magic formula. It matters what subjects students study, and subsidies should focus on the subjects that matter the most—not to the students but to everyone else. The high-school and college dropouts are also telling us something important: We need to provide opportunities for all types of learners, not just classroom learners. Going to college is neither necessary nor sufficient to be well educated."
"Tuning in to Dropping Out" Chronicle of Higher Education. (http://chronicle.com/article/Tuning-In-to-Dropping-Out/130967/)

                   

 

NancyinStL said...
To deny capable students access to learning because of graduation rates restricting financial resources will haunt our country far into the future. It may make the top 1% feel they've accomplished something by having a degree that they could pay for when others couldn't. The rest of us will suffer mightily.

                   
revelo :
If anything has been learned from the deconstructionists, it is that the idea that you are "broadening perspectives" is preposterous. What you are doing is slapping even heavier intellectual chains on your charges. Conservative ideology is easy to see through. Take away their government subsidies and government-enforced rent-extraction opportunities and expose them to the full harshness of capitalism, and middle-class Ayn Rand disciples (a huge percentage of whom, in my experience, work in the defense-industrial complex) will shift violently leftward in no time.
So-called "liberal" ideology is far trickier to untangle than the "conservative" version, but the final desired result is the same--an elite lording over everyone else. And how could it be otherwise? Do liberals not believe in evolution? Do liberals not believe we are animals at heart? Because if we are little better than hairless chimpanzees, our motives will surely then be to create a hierarchy, with ourselves at the top doing the easy work and others at the bottom doing the hard work. Of course, chimpanzees lack the intelligence to wrap these crude motives in high-falutin' talk about "broadening perspectives".


I'm with Paine on this. Burn the academy down. Make colleges and their credentials exclusively vocational. There is no need for formal education, grading, and credentialism in the arts and humanities and anything else that truly broadens perspectives.