Saturday, December 3, 2011

chit chat on the zone drones

Killing the Euro, by Paul Krugman, Commentary, NY Times:



Can the euro be saved? Not long ago we were told that the worst possible outcome was a Greek default. Now a much wider disaster seems all too likely..., even optimists now see Europe as headed for recession, while pessimists warn that the euro may become the epicenter of another global financial crisis.
How did things go so wrong? The answer you hear all the time is that the euro crisis was caused by fiscal irresponsibility. Turn on your TV and you’re very likely to find some pundit declaring that if America doesn’t slash spending we’ll end up like Greece. Greeeeeece!
But the truth is nearly the opposite. Although Europe’s leaders continue to insist that the problem is too much spending in debtor nations, the real problem is too little spending in Europe as a whole. And their efforts to fix matters by demanding ever harsher austerity have played a major role in making the situation worse. ...
Warnings that this would deepen the slump were waved away. “The idea that austerity measures could trigger stagnation is incorrect,” declared Jean-Claude Trichet, then the president of the European Central Bank. Why? Because “confidence-inspiring policies will foster and not hamper economic recovery.”
But the confidence fairy was a no-show. ...
At this point, markets have lost faith in the euro as a whole, driving up interest rates even for countries like Austria and Finland, hardly known for profligacy. And it’s not hard to see why. The combination of austerity-for-all and a central bank morbidly obsessed with inflation makes it essentially impossible for indebted countries to escape from their debt trap and is, therefore, a recipe for widespread debt defaults, bank runs, and general financial collapse.
I hope, for our sake as well as theirs, that the Europeans will change course before it’s too late. But, to be honest, I don’t believe they will. In fact, what’s much more likely is that we will follow them down the path to ruin.
For in America, as in Europe, the economy is being dragged down by troubled debtors — in our case, mainly homeowners. And here, too, we desperately need expansionary fiscal and monetary policies to support the economy as these debtors struggle back to financial health. Yet, as in Europe, public discourse is dominated by deficit scolds and inflation obsessives.
So the next time you hear someone claiming that if we don’t slash spending we’ll turn into Greece, your answer should be that if we do slash spending while the economy is still in a depression, we’ll turn into Europe. In fact, we’re well on our way.

     



    Comments

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    neelzito said...
    FeedPaul,it's not about austerity for its own sake but countries have to restructure in order to restore competitiveness. And if the US does not achieve that, then they will turn into another Greece, Greeeece! That is the concept of Globalization.

    reason said in reply to neelzito...
    Struth! (Some people just don't pay attention do they!)
    Don't you get the idea that competitiveness is BETWEEN countries - you can't ALL become more competitive.

    neelzito said in reply to reason...
    I see, so you're solution is too become less competitive than the rest? Sounds very smart. The Chinese will be happy to hear about it.

    reason said in reply to neelzito...
    No,
    but competitiveness can be easily restored by changing the exchange rate. But not what that does to other countries? It makes more sense to increase global demand so all countries benefit rather than playing zero sum games.

    neelzito said in reply to reason...
    When has the US changed their exchange rate the last time in order to achieve that?
    From an altruistic point of view you are right, that countries increasing their competitiveness against others is a race to the bottom and should not be done. However it is reality. If you choose not to do it, you will not survive unless there is a global solution.

    paine said in reply to reason...
    excellent points reasonable one
    even a round of competitive devaluations
    would ramp up global inflation itseelf an important step toward a more rapid recovery of global production
    and that forgets the basic principle of effective demand management within a currency zone
    obviously the ECB backs all existing zonal sovereign debt first
    then sees to it
    national borrowing rates rapidly converge toward some target rate
    regardless of short run full employment
    national fiscal policy
    if at the time of full recovery and converged rates
    some member states have chronic structural problems
    deal with it then
    not now
    basically the trading surplus nations inside the zone need to accelerate y on y
    final demand and wage rate increases
    --relative to deficit euro member national systems --
    the key is obvious
    to simultaneously
    lower the real debt burden throughout the zone
    while adjusting intrazone wage rates
    requires rapid over all nominal growth PLUS relatively more rapid nominal growth in ...well the teutonic national systems

    ilsm said in reply to neelzito...
    Lots of liquidity for banksters, nothing to iunvest in internal productivity.
    Competition is rooted in efficiency, how does austerty address efficiency and productivity?
    How do you make your economy efficient if no one is addressing the monetary issues? Or the insolvency of the banking system?
    There is no austere approach to resolving bad debt, which is hidden behind all the recent and inept liquidity facilities to forestall runs on the insolvent banksters in Europe and Wall St.

    paine said in reply to ilsm...
    btw
    "I hope, for our sake as well as theirs, that the Europeans will change course before it’s too late. But, to be honest, I don’t believe they will. In fact, what’s much more likely is that we will follow them down the path to ruin."
    pure hysterics !!!!
    pk at rock bottom silly

    Peter K. said in reply to paine...
    Yes before Krugman would write that he couldn't see the European elite allowing the euro to fail and and the same time he couldn't see how they would be able to fix things in time.
    This is the first column were he says he doesn't believe they will pull the plane up before hitting the ground. And he adds that he believes the U.S. will follow Europe down. Happy weekend!
    Krugman has followed international economics for a while so he could be right.
    Would the 6 central banks have acted in concert if it wall just kabuki theater for getting club med to take its austerity-deflationary medicine?

    anne said in reply to paine...
    "I hope, for our sake as well as theirs, that the Europeans will change course before it’s too late. But, to be honest, I don’t believe they will. In fact, what’s much more likely is that we will follow them down the path to ruin."
    -- Paul Krugman
    pure hysterics !!!!
    PK at rock bottom silly
    [The problem that Paul Krugman has been worried about is minimal growth in much of Europe for years to come, and that problem is being realized through the bent to austerity programs with has been fierce and is evidently strengthening. I find the worry important and the worry applies to a lesser extent to America.]

    anne said in reply to paine...
    pure hysterics !!!!
    PK at rock bottom silly
    No, the issue is not the Euro, which will simply not be abandoned by prominent EuroZone political leaders, but the problem is growth with austerity program being pushed in Euro countries and beyond in Europe as in Britain.

    ilsm said in reply to paine...
    paine,
    suppose Cassandra became hysterical as the gates opened to roll in the wooden horse..........

    chriss1519 said in reply to neelzito...
    Please explain. How does restructuring (I assume you mean paying down debt) restore competitiveness? Lowering interest rates? We've already seen that austerity doesn't achieve that.

    Eric said in reply to chriss1519...
    the fact that you automatically assume that restructuring means paying down debt, is in my opinion proof for the narrow view I find on Anglo saxon boards that there is only limited methods to improve competitiveness and that's monetary/fiscal, or otherwise leave it to the exchange rate. I think this view is dominant in market economies, but European economies are mixed economies. Stakeholders like government, companies and unions play a major part in Europe in steering the economy. So in the European view, restructuring means things like labor reforms, labor plans, government reforms, government investments in education, innovation, etc.

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    Eric
    " labor reforms, labor plans, government reforms, government investments in education, innovation"
    sorry too too slow and for that matter not complete
    germany needs higher relative wages greece and the rest of club med lower relative wages
    ( germany on a faster nominal gdp growth )
    the entire zone needs lwer relative wages vis a vis asia
    (forex forex forex )

    the entire zone needs a nice bout of 5 %
    product price level inflation
    ie 8 % in germany and 3% in the combined club meds
    euro corporatism alone at its solidarity induced best will only piece out the hunger rations more equitably
    totally un necessary

    paine said in reply to paine...
    high handed lecture on the virtues of papist corporatism and teutonic social marketeering
    seems odd given your zones evident prime problem de jour
    a complete establishment wide knuckling under
    to a completely irresponsible purely
    global
    pro corporate --in the anglo saxon sense--
    anti job class ECB

    Eric said in reply to paine...
    Too slow? I believe in long term strategies, not quick fixes based upon fiscal or monetary tricks.
    Germany and the other Northern European countries have record low unemployment and high exports, so they do not have to change their economic model that has served them well for decades. Why should they? It's the south that needs to catch up. And before you point out the imbalances: the trade imbalances, which were mainly caused by housing bubbles and reckless bank lending, are disappearing fast and have not changed the export or unemployment numbers in the North, as their recent export growth is in large part based upon the rest of the world. The eurozone is competitive vs the rest of the world, the eurozone does not have a trade deficit. The unemployment in a country like Spain is high, but was equally high before they joined the euro, they always had high unemployment, remember that these countries came from an impoverished past with distributorships only ending in the 70s and made large steps in the past decades! Their solution to improve their economies is structural reforms and no more get rich quick schemes like housing bubbles.
    At this moment I see the USA and UK having trade deficits, record unemployment (if you add the unfortunate who stopped searching) and record budget deficits that are unsustainable.
    Sure, the eurozone has debt problems and needs growth, but who doesn't, and what can the eurozone exactly learn from the Anglosaxon economic model?
    That model is bust in my opinion, and the part the eurozone did follow, low interest rates and more lending, has only contributed to the debt problems.

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    a compost heap eric
    " I believe in long term strategies, not quick fixes based upon fiscal or monetary tricks..."

    "Germany and the other Northern European countries
    .... they do not have to change their economic model.."
    if you actually believe germany can ride out
    a euro crash
    maybe you need to review your position
    btw
    job sharing is no triumph
    its simply clever rationing system
    where no hours rationing ought to be necessary
    if germany now ran full employment fiscal deficits
    and increased intrazone imports
    raised nominal wages etc
    the zone would hold together and med misery combined with absurd pointless sucker bait self discipline by the teutonic job class
    --- why sacrifice for your corporations ???---
    and yes the euro needs to deval
    obviously not against the anglo saxon currencies
    but against the now undervalued eastern european
    and asian currencies
    --- if germany needs to rapidly increase nominal wages and remain globally competitive the euro must fall ---
    even the vaunted german export machine
    needs a lower euro to sustain exports

    as to anglo saxon models
    which ones ???
    the washington consensus ??
    or those mongrel ops
    the ones implemented by our present unmatched pair
    of ramheaded regimes in the UK and the US ??
    ukus suckus !!!
    who's suggesting that here ????
    the recipe pk offers for "your zone "is far far from the policy here and now in the ukus-reichs

    Peter K. said in reply to Eric...
    "is in my opinion proof for the narrow view I find on Anglo saxon boards"
    As opposed to what, European boards?
    American commentators do tend to forget that, for instance, Germany has better labor policies like work sharing and a tighter labor market than the U.S. so inflation may be more of an issue than the U.S. But in general I agree with pangloss paine on solutions but agree with Krugman's hysterics on the spiraling European Feedback Cycle of Doom.

    ken melvin said in reply to neelzito...
    'Scalled the race to the bottom.

    Winston Smith said in reply to neelzito...
    It's not just about competitiveness (that is, getting a bigger piece of the pie). It's about growing the world economy (that is, getting a bigger pie). Once we are in what Krugman calls "the liquidity trap", then if everybody's getting more competitive than nobody is, and if we continue trying than the whole planet will spiral down.
    That is why Germany--which, until a few weeks ago, was considered the gold standard of competitiveness--is starting to hurt. They've managed to stay on top of the European heap, but the heap is sinking rapidly.

    paine said in reply to Winston Smith...
    this fails to see the positive effect of deval competitions ..they accelerate inflation
    just what the global market system needs right now

    anne said in reply to neelzito...
    Paul,it's not about austerity for its own sake but countries have to restructure in order to restore competitiveness. And if the US does not achieve that, then they will turn into another Greece, Greeeece!
    [What is to fascinating about Austrian economists, not referring to the people of Austria just to the economists, is how hopelessly mindless they are. Fortunately any time I find an Austrian economist, I know paying attention will cost me money and I turn away even though the fascination with mindlessness is there.]

    anne said in reply to anne...
    Understanding why Austrian economists are so mindless and will cost you money, by the way, simply takes looking to the bond market and understanding how profound a long term bull market in bonds we have experienced, especially how profound a bull market these last 10 years and even more so these last 3 years. Paying attention to Austrians, the economists and not the people of Austria, would have been to have missed the profound bull market in bonds while waiting for the America to become "Greeeece!" (No offense to the Greek people, though the Greek government deserves no sympathy.)

    paine said in reply to anne...
    anne
    full name of the culprit cretin gang

    the austerian-austrian-apian axis

    paine said in reply to paine...
    btw
    the best thing possible right now would be a bond market in full retreat before a wave of national inflations

    humans can learn to control inflation
    much as they learned to control fire
    abba lerner said that...errr ..more or less
    umh ..at least he implied it ..kinda
    but its true baby gloriously paradozically true
    controled national inflations
    are the future of the future
    why if we had that we could have
    one world currency !!!!!

    Peter K. said in reply to paine...
    "why if we had that we could have
    one world currency !!!!!"
    Like Jean-Luc Picard has on Star Trek.

    EMichael said in reply to Peter K....
    Lots of things on Star Trek became reality. And more to come, so who knows!

    paine said in reply to Peter K....
    believe me
    selling a global currency is childs play compared
    to the national/regional mark up cap and trade markets
    that would need to be in place prior to implementation of global money

    Darryl FKA Ron said in reply to paine...
    "the best thing possible right now would be a bond market in full retreat before a wave of national inflations"
    So, are you still convinced that the calvary will arrive in time?
    I get that you are and partially understand why, but then the US turned its back on the black swans in a state of denial in 2007-08. Most likely the Bush administration did not want to take action and get blamed for any fallout, since they would get not credit for the disaster that was avoided. So, the nagging question is really whether such an analsyis paralysis compromises the ECB? That is do they fear most the consequences of inaction or action?
    Missed ya - ya stinking commie!
    Affectionately Yours
    The strutting Burkean peacock.
    BTW: My long run political self-label was "millitant moderate" which might have been more appropriate than traditional or Burkean conservative, which were centrist labels that I was unaware of until just a couple years ago. The New America Foundation call themselves "radical centrists," which I kind of like and am aligned with better than most. I also like the little "Modern Whigs" embryonic political party founded by veterans returning from Bush's wars, but they are too sincere to draw any hedge fund financial backers and have not gotten any traction so far.
    So, for now I am a recalcitrant liberal.

    paine said in reply to Darryl FKA Ron...
    the september 08 shocks have not as yet had toime to forgotten
    the cavalry (ECB) will come
    there will be no hi fi calvary II
    hell we job class pikers
    aren't down off the crosses
    we got nailed to
    during calvary I

    Doctor Why said...
    Higher inflation and high budget deficits can be used as a short-term (countercyclical) or a long-term (structural) solution. Their countercyclical use can be justified within a simple Keynesian framework; however, if you want to recommend them as a structural solution, you need a long-term framework incorporating demographics, international division of labor, natural resource constraints and other factors.
    Krugman does not have a long-term framework (for example, he has only recently become interested in the long-term evolution of private debt, though it is a key to understanding the current crisis), so he just stretches the definition of “short-term” and keeps making the same Keynesian argument – and that’s very disappointing.

    Doctor Why said in reply to Doctor Why...
    ...especially considering his work on Japan more than a decade ago.

    ilsm said in reply to Doctor Why...
    You should know more of what Krugman says.

    paine said in reply to Doctor Why...
    doc
    you combine this sweet light
    "Higher inflation and high budget deficits can be used as a short-term (countercyclical) or a long-term (structural) solution. Their countercyclical use can be justified within a simple Keynesian framework"
    with this goulash that sums to a useless gibberish
    "as a structural solution, you need a long-term framework incorporating demographics, international division of labor, natural resource constraints and other factors"
    let us dissect
    "as a structural solution, you need a long-term framework "
    fair enough long term solutions require long term frameworks
    "incorporating demographics,
    international division of labor,
    natural resource constraints ..."
    really ??
    i suspet one needs to notice these features of any national plan
    but macro targets for an open subsystem like
    a national economy or production platform
    require no such detail only
    a target path for employment
    consistent
    with
    balanced trade wages
    an optimal tax and transfer system
    and an acceptable real total debt burden

    "and other factors"
    a list that wants to enlighten needs to be conmplete
    unless these "other factors"
    are of marginal impact only

    Doctor Why said in reply to paine...
    I think we already went over all of this a couple of years ago.
    The simplest way to extend the original Keynesian framework is to replace loanable funds with financial assets in general, and explicitly model supply and demand in the financial markets.
    For example, on the demand side we should take into account:
    1) Baby boomers saving for retirement
    2) Impact of income inequality on saving rates
    3) External demand (oil exporters sovereign funds,
    other countries' FX reserves)
    and so on.
    On the supply side our model should include:
    1) Nominal interest rates/inflation
    2) Current level of private debt
    3) Collateral prices
    4) Budget deficit/level of government debt
    and so on.
    In other words, if you want to make the original Keynesian framework useful for a long-term analysis you should model both stocks and flows and add important constraints such as availability of collateral.
    That's obviously not the only way to build a long-term framework, but it is a natural extension of the basic Keynesian model.

    Doctor Why said in reply to Doctor Why...
    Obviously, the impact of globalization and resource constraints is not limited to the financial markets, e.g.:
    - globalization increases structural unemployment in the developed countries, and increaeses demand for natural resources
    - higher resource prices may feed through into core inflation.

    paine said in reply to Doctor Why...
    seems
    you have all the pieces
    but not the patterns
    that fits them together
    forex and balanced trade
    price level and debt load
    there is no reason to make this inevitable
    " globalization increases structural unemployment in the developed countries"
    no
    with effective fiscal policy
    we can maintain full employment
    at all times
    even as global integration
    forces job mix change
    yes skill scrap heaps tend to grow faster
    but that
    is a task for compensation systems
    -- think premium wage insurance ---
    as for resource prices ya they may surge
    if resource utilization efficiencies lag
    but that has happened b4
    in fact over all resource prices
    and raw commodity prices
    are too low now
    relative to product prices
    " higher resource prices may feed through into core inflation"
    not necessary
    yes real wages will get a squeeze
    that and or profit margins
    but again controled inflations combine with an adequate transfer system
    and earned social dividends
    can deal with these challenges quite nicely

    anne said in reply to paine...
    seems
    you have all the pieces
    but not the patterns
    that fits them together
    forex and balanced trade
    price level and debt load
    there is no reason to make this inevitable
    [These comments on the Euro matters are terrific, add significantly to them when possible.]

    Doctor Why said in reply to paine...
    You chose to focus on the secondary plot line. The main strory is that we are dealing with a structural shortfall in aggregate demand caused by several long-term trends. However, some of those trends will eventually reverse and our policies should anticipate this reversal. For example:
    1) Baby boomers will retire and start spending their savings.
    2) The world will eventually make transition to a post-oil economy, which will dramatically decrease official demand for financial assets.

    Doctor Why said in reply to Doctor Why...
    To expand on the second example:
    - globalization increases incomes in the developing countries, which leads to a higher demand for natural resources
    - resource importers (in particular, China) are forced to build up FX reserves to ensure future access to oil and other natural resources (given that their oil demand grows by 1bpd every year)
    - Oil exporters are forced to save a large part of their revenues in order to ensure a smooth transition to a post-oil economy.

    ilsm said in reply to Doctor Why...
    financial assets is what got this depression going.
    more productive assets are needed
    as well as more revenues either form growth, protetcion or across the board taxing financial assets.......................

    Doctor Why said in reply to ilsm...
    From a Keynesian perspective, it's rather inadequate supply of financial assets that got this depression going.

    DrDick said in reply to Doctor Why...
    From a rational perspective, it was an excess of speculation and excessive diversion of financial resources into nonproductive speculative investment (which is what I think Keynes would actually say). In other words, the big banks blew the whole paycheck for the world in a crap game.

    Doctor Why said in reply to DrDick...
    I think Keynes would first of all say that it is always a bad idea to try and deflate a (real estate) bubble with higher interest rates (sorry for the long quote):
    "It would be absurd to assert of the United States in 1929 the existence of over-investment in the strict sense. The true state of affairs was of a different character. New investment during the previous five years had been, indeed, on so enormous a scale in the aggregate that the prospective yield of further additions was, coolly considered, falling rapidly. Correct foresight would have brought down the marginal efficiency of capital to an unprecedentedly low figure; so that the “boom” could not have continued on a sound basis except with a very low long-term rate of interest, and an avoidance of misdirected investment in the particular directions which were in danger of being over-exploited. In fact, the rate of interest was high enough to deter new investment except in those particular directions which were under the influence of speculative excitement and, therefore, in special danger of being over-exploited; and a rate of interest, high enough to overcome the speculative excitement, would have checked, at the same time, every kind of reasonable new investment. Thus an increase in the rate of interest, as a remedy for the state of
    affairs arising out of a prolonged period of abnormally heavy new investment, belongs to the species of remedy which cures the disease by killing the patient."



    economonium said...
    neelzito, please explain to us how the US, a country with its own central bank, and its own currency that sets its own interest rates etc can turn into another Greeeeece? Because for the life of me, I don't see any comparison here, especially since the US is the world's reserve currency. Please use the graphs of the last 5 years worth of US interest/bond rates in your analysis. Include debt to GDP ratios, size of the public sector, trends in public sector employment, and total personal indebtedness in your analysis also.
    And while you're at it, explain where the confidence fairies have been since the first time "inflation is coming" has been mentioned. Include the amount of time in months people have been screaming "inflation!" and what the figures are for that entire period, and what the market is telling us it is likely to be in the future.

    reason said in reply to economonium...
    Where do these people come from? They haven't been reading this blog for long clearly, because they don't seem aware that there arguments have been repeatedly debunked.

    neelzito said in reply to economonium...
    I think you misunderstood my post as my argument simply was that Paul was oversimplifying Europe's reason for austerity measures. Paul claims it is simply to get rid of sovereign debt whereas it is really about restoring competitiveness (I agree they are not doing a very good job at it).
    Of course the US will not become Greece in the sense that their funding cost will increase dramatically. However, the US have a problem in regards to competing with other countries. This is why unemployment has increased (jobs went to china). Of course you can just increase spending but that will make you even less competitive in the long run.

    reason said in reply to neelzito...
    sigh.
    Don't you get that China deliberately keeps its exchange rate against the US low? If US costs fall, you can bet China will push the US currency up.

    Eric said in reply to reason...
    exchange rate does not improve competitiveness, it's a cheap fix to deal with loss of competitiveness, with negative side effects like inflation and lower living standards.

    reason said in reply to Eric...
    As against pushing down nominal with negative side effects like deflation and lower living standards.
    Gee - can't you do better than that. Yes will all like Apple Pie and motherhood (oops structural reforms to increase productivity) but we don't have a chronic problem here we have an acute emergency. Its like proscribing diet and excercise as the immediate response to a stroke!

    Eric said in reply to reason...
    I doubt if exchange rates changes do much in economic emergencies these days. Let's look at the dollar: the US products I do buy in the eurozone are mostly limited to clothing and electronics. They are all made outside the USA, mostly Asia, and as since the internet I can compare prices online, I pay the same amount in euros here as American consumers pay in dollars in the US. So please explain how a drop in the dollar is doing much for competitiveness, the products don't change in price here.

    reason said in reply to Eric...
    The difference is called VAT.

    reason said in reply to reason...
    And if the prices aren't changing in response to exchange rates, you aren't looking in the right places (i.e. you are looking at administered prices not market prices).

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    dead wrong

    reason said in reply to neelzito...
    You really should read Paul Krugman regularly. He deals with these sort of arguments every couple of days.

    DrDick said in reply to reason...
    "He deals with these sort of arguments every couple of days."
    For all values of "deals with"=runs through the wood chipper.

    paine said in reply to neelzito...
    " Paul claims it is simply to get rid of sovereign debt"
    no he doesn't at all
    " it is really about restoring competitiveness"
    pk has often made this precise point
    you might read him first comrade
    b4 continuing this iron ignorant critique

    paine said in reply to paine...
    anne
    marshall a few exempla from pk's blog

    Steve said...
    Shouldn't have put so much of the economy under control of the Government in the first place, really: When a large chunk of the economy is run by a single organization, it is inevitable you're going to feel pain when that organization runs low on cash.

    reason said in reply to Steve...
    But the government has a printing press - other organisation don't. Don't you get it that all organisations have less cash than they want (we know that because they are not spending what they have). I don't understand how people can be so thick! Seriously!

    reason said in reply to Steve...
    I guess the real answer would be:
    my God you're right. We should start breaking up big corporations!

    reason said in reply to Steve...
    And another answer is to point out that the Government is not "a single organisation". It is in fact of collection of quite distinct organisations. It makes just as much sense to call "the banks" a single organisation, they are also closely connected, and the banks is also a collective word.

    reason said in reply to reason...
    Sorry, for everybody who thinks I just should ignore this sort of sloppy thinking. But there are always new readers who need to have the flaws in this sort of argument pointed out.

    paine said in reply to reason...
    and its jolly fun to thrash em too eh ?
    reasonable one !!!

    paine said in reply to Steve...
    steve
    you might consider the difference between a state
    and say a country club or a school or a credit union

    Julio said in reply to paine...
    I started to look for differences between the US and a country club but I'm stuck.

    reason said in reply to Julio...
    Look, your complete lack of insight says nothing about reality. Try issuer of currency for a start. Try universality versus exclusivity for another. Try right to tax for another.

    ilsm said...
    Go where the money is. In the US 20% of federal outlays are for war profiteering.
    Austerity. What splurging needs cut.
    The cutting frenzie is used as anti New Deal agitprop, just a continuation of the post WW II anti New Dealers. That is why the Greece false analogy comes up in US austerity screed.

    Compared to the Eurozone the US spends three times share of its GDP occupying military sink holes around the world.
    US austerity must start at closing down the corporatists' military machine.

    beezer said...
    After a decade, or two, or three, of serious malinvestment we need to redirect hundreds of billions of frightened, hoarded dollars into massive projects that will employ millions.
    That's the only way forward that makes any sense. The other way, austerity (a misnomer, liquidation is more accurate), offers only destitution for a majority of citizens.
    Employment is the only metric to consider right now. Everything else, including deficits and debt, are useless distractions.

    ken melvin said...
    Was the great Depression a recalibration of debt?

    paine said in reply to ken melvin...
    excessive borrowing is the original sin of petty capitalism

    ilsm said in reply to paine...
    paine
    it was usury and making money on the poor
    both prohibited in the old testament
    which is no interest to the current religious zealots
    they only go to the bedrioom the boardroom is free of inquiry and john the baptist's moralizing

    Dan Kervick said...
    "Why? Because “confidence-inspiring policies will foster and not hamper economic recovery.” "
    It's truly incredible that so many important public officials, like Trichet, have talked themselves into this kind of superstitious voodoo - and have actually bet on it as the main tool of policy in a major recession.
    Imagine that all of the developed world's public health officials, faced with a major epidemic, had suddenly concluded the thing to do is to order up truckloads of leeches and subject their countries to a regime of massive bleeding. Some of these officials believe that bleeding is medically effective. Others only believe that since some folks believe bleeding is materially effective, we can count on the placebo effect alone to end the epidemic.
    And all the while cases full of effective medicines sit unopened on pallets in the government warehouses.
    Both the true believers in bleeding and the true believers in the omnipotence of the placebo effect should be flogged.

    paine said in reply to Dan Kervick...
    "It's truly incredible that so many important public officials, like Trichet, have talked themselves into this kind of superstitious voodoo "

    not if it effectively conceals their real motives
    to intervene in your analogy
    what if the leeches are the health officials

    Robert Asher said...
    Even if Prof. Krugman is wrong about long term policy, you should not ignore the fact that he is dead on target in his call for short term stimulus. I don't see the American political system (dominated by big money, where every Congressional committee chairmanship is BOUGHT with millions of campaign contributions) permitting the kind of restructuring I think is necessary. But if we had liberal Democratic President (instead of the current moderate Republican) there would be a chance of a substantial stimulus. Look at the data: the last stimulus WORKED. It just was not big enough. A President who really campaigns for a policy, in alliance with liberal groups, can accomplish a lot.
    Look at the way John F. Kennedy linked up with Norman Cousins and SANE to turn around public opinion on the atmospheric nuclear test ban treaty. Its a matter of genuine commitment to a cause.

    jim said...
    " the real problem is too little spending in Europe as a whole."
    And what does Germany and France (and other countries in Europe) spending have to do with PIIGS spending? I doubt that more spending with 7+% yields on government debt would be positively received. Printing money may temporarily lower interest rates but that really doesn't seem to be the PIIGS problem does it? They didn't get a mountain of debt because of Germany, France, etc.

    paine said in reply to jim...
    jim
    you ask the right question

    And what does Germany and France (and other countries in Europe) spending have to do with PIIGS spending"
    one word exports
    more spending in the rest of the common market
    increases
    the piigs exports to those countries
    germany must grow much faster then the piigs for a spell
    or the piigs have to contract faster then germany
    you choose ??

    anne said...
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/profligate-zombies/
    December 2, 2011
    Profligate Zombies
    By Paul Krugman
    Dean Baker has a series of posts * about bad reporting on the euro crisis; he is evidently, and with good reason, upset at the way just about every report states as a fact that excessive borrowing caused the crisis.
    This is another one of those zombie ideas that permeate our discourse; it’s part of the narrative, and no amount of evidence can kill it or even stop reporters/editors from stating it as a fact.
    So, one more time, here are some data (from the IMF World Economic Outlook database). Debt as a % of GDP for Spain and Italy:
    [Gross debt as percent of GDP for Italy and Spain, 199-2011]
    Before the crisis Spain had low and declining debt. Italy had high debt inherited from the past, but it was steadily working that debt down relative to GDP. Neither country was being profligate — that’s just not what happened. Since the crisis debt has been rising relative to GDP, but that’s what happens when you have an economic crisis.
    Yes, Greece. But Greece is now a tiny part of this story. As I said in today’s column, Greece (GDP of about $300 billion) is roughly Greater Miami ($270 billion). Italy and Spain are the big stories, and they were not, repeat not, fiscally profligate.
    * http://www.cepr.net/index.php/beat-the-press/

    Eric said in reply to anne...
    but that doesn't change the fact that Italy is in the dangerzone with debt above 120%. Historic research by economist Rogoff has shown that when countries get to these kind of debt levels, default risk increases significantly. The solution proposed by Dean Baker and others that the ECB should simply buy Italian debt, so rates come down and all is solved is not credible. Confidence will not come back, all that will happen is that investors dump their Italian debt at the ECB and the other eurozone countries will eventually have to pay for this.

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    eric rogof is playing partisan in the class war
    his findings are useless
    its like a history of bacterialinfection pre
    the era of effective anti biotics --keynes-kalecki --
    yes we now notice resistent strains as a new and relevent history
    but today the problem as stated nicely above
    non use of the anti biotics we have
    we don't employ the "anti biotics"
    beause ...
    just read this
    http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2010/kalecki220510.html

    Julio said in reply to paine...
    Very good linked article.
    I would be curious to know your take on the financing of debt via a tax on capital (footnote 2): is that a necessary component of the scheme?

    paine said in reply to Julio...
    missed this sorry
    excellent question
    quick answer
    kalecki was not into playing with the nominal gross product ie inflation as an instrument of real debt reduction
    i am
    and therefore debt service becomes to pronged
    inflation taxed and rate controled
    besdies actual interets payments
    i think those oughta come out of some sort of wealth like tax base

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    eric if the structural problem is the high rates themselves
    bring them down solves the problem eh ??
    if you are a german
    which seems implied now and again
    you strike me as exceedingly undilligent
    in your thinking
    must be bavarian or swabian

    Eric said in reply to paine...
    I think Rogoff was thinking of you when he decided on the title of his book: this time it's different!

    paine said in reply to Eric...
    no
    that applies to the hi fi risk takers
    not the transfer system gosplaners like me

    anne said in reply to anne...
    http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/beat-the-press/bailout-economics-for-david-brooks?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+beat_the_press+%28Beat+the+Press%29
    December 2, 2011
    Bailout Economics for David Brooks
    David Brooks tells us * that he is very concerned about the demands that value-less technocrats are imposing on the people of Germany to bail out the heavily indebted countries of southern Europe. He is worried that the bailout will be very costly and also that it will remove the link between effort and reward.
    Both sides of this picture need a little further examination. First, let's take a look at that big cost story. What is needed first and foremost in this bailout is a guarantee of debt from a deep-pocketed entity that can make this guarantee credible. That would be the European Central Bank (ECB).
    Guarantees can in principle be costless to the guarantor. Our political establishment and their followers in the media have been anxious to tell us how the government and the Fed made money on the TARP and related Fed bank bailouts. This is true. Of course we still gave enormously valuable subsidies to the beneficiaries of the bailouts.
    The way this works is that the money lent to the banks had very little cost to the government. The guarantees have no cost to the government, if they are not actually drawn upon. This means that if we get even nominal interest payments, the goverment comes out ahead.
    This is largely the case with the ECB right now. If it guarantees the debt of the troubled countries then the runs on these countries' bonds will stop and their debt burdens will be sustainable. This means that the net cost to the ECB is likely to be close to zero and it could even led to a profit. Furthermore, the ECB can print as many euros as it wants, just as the Fed can print as many dollars as it wants.
    All of this means that the tax burden on those hard working Germans should at the end of the day be a mind blowing -- hold your horses -- ZERO!
    Okay, there is a small issue here. The ECB will have to abandon its worship of the number 2, as in 2 percent inflation. If the ECB is prepared to provide the support necessary to get southern Europe back on a healthy growth path then it will be necessary to have a somewhat higher inflation rate in Germany, perhaps 3-4 percent. Is that too troubling for the German people? Maybe we can have inflation adjustment therapy sessions to allow Brooks' hard-working Germans to cope with this situation. (We should send the bill to the profligate southern Europeans.)
    Now that we have explained to Brooks that there will be no crushing tax burden on the Germans let's turn to the "effort-reward" story. There is a logical counterpart to every reckless borrower known as a reckless lender. Lenders are supposed to know the creditworthiness of their borrowers. That is what is supposed to distinguish a successful bank from an unsuccessful bank.
    To some extent the lenders can perhaps be excused in the case of Greece, since the country did outright lie about its budget situation. (Some people more familiar with the world of high finance than me insist that the lenders knew that Greece was lying.) However, the trillions of dollars of loans that fueled housing bubbles in Spain, Ireland, and elsewhere were freely made by very well compensated bankers who were supposed to have some clue as to what they were doing.
    In the world where effort is linked to reward, all of these reckless lenders should be out on the street, sent to the bottom rungs of society for their incredibly destructive greed and incompetence. That has not happened, nor is Brooks calling for it to happen.
    Instead, Brooks wants to see the people of Spain, Portugal, Italy and elsewhere suffer, because their leaders were no more competent than the people at the ECB or the banks making loans in Germany, France and elsewhere. He thinks that they should endure long periods of high unemployment, see big cuts in the pensions for which they worked decades, and have education spending for their children reduced.
    I'm looking really hard, but I don't see any connection between effort and reward in Brooks' vision. Maybe he can clarify the link in a future column.
    * http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/02/opinion/brooks-the-spirit-of-enterprise.html
    -- Dean Baker

    Julio said in reply to anne...
    Excellent points. It's easy to lose track of the fact that the entities being rescued are banks that made bad loans, and that the "crisis" is that they threaten to take others down with them.

    Shine said...
    We need World War 3 then to start everything from cents and restructure everything.

    Squidward said...
    "..the economy is being dragged down by troubled debtors — in our case, mainly homeowners. And here, too, we desperately need expansionary fiscal and monetary policies to support the economy as these debtors struggle back to financial health."
    I can't disagree with the gist, getting back to robust growth. But growth for debtors to get back to financial health or austerity to pay off debts is still the same.
    I'm afraid that we are going into a global lost decade with a yoke of ever increasing debt because we are more concerned that bankers get paid than creating jobs and real growth.
    It is just one funding mechanism after another, do we need more loans and debt or less? What is it actually paying for? Not jobs and growth in meaning full sectors of the economy.
    It's time for a debt jubilee. It's been more than 50 years.

    EMichael said in reply to Squidward...
    " But growth for debtors to get back to financial health or austerity to pay off debts is still the same."
    This makes my teeth hurt. The beatings will continue until morale improves.

    paine said in reply to Squidward...
    "growth for debtors to get back to financial health or austerity to pay off debts is still the same. "
    no if we run a rate of nominal gdp higher
    then the rate of debt service we are shrinking
    the national debt burden without aying off one cent of it
    we can roll it over indefinitely
    that is why we talk about primary deficits
    ie curent spending versus current revenue
    exclusive of debt servic payments
    italy faces too high debt service payments unless the rate they borrow at doesn't subside from the 7 range
    to say the 4 range
    btw
    if the fear of default premium on existing italian sovereign debt
    is removed by a blanket ECB guarantee
    the 4 's become nearly certain
    even if inflation spec leads market forces
    to lift german rates off the bed rocks
    at the same time

    paine said in reply to paine...
    The Burden of the Debt and the National Income,
    1944, AER
    this is the locus classicus its by the darling fellow e evsey domar
    i regret the link to it i know of
    is toll boothed by the jestor
    http://www.jstor.org/pss/1807397

    Squidward said in reply to paine...
    Agreed, if we could have a higher run rate of nominal GDP than debt service.
    We still wait for Ben to target nominal GDP, hopefully it will the next iteration of policy. The Eurozone is further behind and debt continues to snowball.
    A large devaluation works as well, transitioning to a global currency (at least for central bank transactions) could have the same effect as FDR revaluing gold in 1933. Pay down old debt with new script.
    I remain concerned that we are headed to a global lost decade; inadequate expansion of fiscal and monetary policy coupled with a dampening effect of higher oil prices. Debt burdens becoming too painful in a low growth environment.
    Decisive action needs to be taken before it gets worse.

    DrDick said...
    At this point, I think that the Euros is already dead and we are just awaiting the official funeral. As Krugman has repeatedly pointed out, a unified currency without an unified monetary/fiscal policy is a certain recipe for disaster. That the Euro core is in the thrall of idiot Austerians like neelzito, has greatly compounded the damage.

    paine said in reply to DrDick...
    wrong my friend
    the euro is too big an MNC run set of card tricks
    to be allowed to spontaneously erupt
    too clever to fail